Help me design a Chocolate Orange Stout

[FatDragon]

A few weeks ago I traveled down to Guangzhou for some consular business (Report of Birth Abroad and passport for my 3 month old son!). Naturally, I had to find a local brewpub, and I wound up in a place called Bravo. A mediocre IPA and a generous pour of KBS (which seems to be on tap in every beer bar in China these days) later, I tried some samples and decided on taking home a growler of their Rauchbier. A growler which was filled about 90% to the top and ended up losing a lot of carbonation to headspace and getting a bit of oxygenation along the way, transforming it from a rather nice beer into a mediocre, if not entirely unpleasant one. When I got home, my overcarbonated oatmeal porter came to the rescue: going 3:2 porter:rauchbier ended up alright - proper carbonation level, some nice, slightly chocolaty roast, a hint of smoke. Not bad. My wife had just cut a blood orange and challenged me to add orange to the concoction. I took the bait and squeezed a quarter into the glass, gave it a swirl, and drank.

It was surprisingly good! I wouldn't brew that beer, but the orange was actually a very nice touch in the roasty, smoky brew. It got me thinking, and now I want to brew a chocolate orange stout, in the vein of those dark chocolate oranges you can buy. It's been probably 20 years since I've had one (quite a feat for someone in his early 30's), but if I remember, the chocolate is a bitter dark chocolate and the orange filling is also bitter, more like an orange peel candy or marmalade than orange juice.

So that's what I want to make: a stout or porter with dark (say 75% cacao) chocolate and bitter candied orange flavors. I don't want an overpowering hoppy bitterness but rather that bitter orange and dark chocolate sort of bitterness, to go along with a thick, smooth body with mild carbonation.

I'm working without Beersmith at the moment, so here's a basic riff to get started:

Aim for OG ~ 1.080 (I can be convinced of anything though, I just feel a bit on the stronger end will stand up better to the flavors and have a better body)

46% Pils
15% Vienna (pils and vienna are my two base malts on hand)
15% Flaked Oats
8% C60
6% Roasted Barley
6% Chocolate Malt
4% Black Patent Malt

~30 IBUs whatever bittering hop @60 min.
20g Citra, 40g Pacifica, 30g dried orange peel @5 min.

Maybe S-04 yeast fermented ~16-17C?

Vodka tincture of cocoa nibs and orange zest for post-ferment. Maybe a dry hop with some more Citra and Pacifica?

Thoughts? How much cocoa nibs should I use? Other form of chocolate maybe? Lactose? Other ideas?

 

[tjosborne]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe something along the lines of southern tier chocolate orange?

 

[Queequeg]

For flavour hops I would use summit, Apollo or admiral because they are the most orangy ime.

I would also use flaked rye instead of oats because orange and rye is a good combo.

The best results for a chocolate flavour I have had is to cold steep pale chocolate malt and use a modest addition of cararoma/special b.

I would avoid lactose with orange.

 

[FatDragon]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe something along the lines of southern tier chocolate orange?

Presumably, though I haven't ever had any Southern Tier, much less that particular beer, so I couldn't say for sure. I know I'm not the first one to think of it, so hopefully I'll be able to get some qualified advice.

For flavour hops I would use summit, Apollo or admiral because they are the most orangy ime.

I would also use flaked rye instead of oats because orange and rye is a good combo.

The best results for a chocolate flavour I have had is to cold steep pale chocolate malt and use a modest addition of cararoma/special b.

I would avoid lactose with orange.

I haven't used or got any of those hops and I might be brewing this weekend (the alternative is probably to wait a month), but I've got 4 oz of Pacifica, which is said to give orange zest and marmalade characteristics which are exactly what I'm looking for. I'm also considering cutting out the Citra entirely and single-hopping it with all the Pacifica, maybe an ounce at 60 (supposed to be a very smooth bitterness), another couple ounces split between 15 and 5, and a final ounce dry hopped.

I'll definitely consider swapping for flaked rye. Gotta order it today if that's the case, since I have none on hand and can't get it locally.

Unfortunately, I have no pale chocolate and don't think it's generally available here in China. I'll consider cold steeping the chocolate malt and adding some Special W (Weyermann's equivalent to Special B) or swapping the C60 for CaraBohemian (which would basically split the difference between adding some Special W to the C60), though - any notes on how you do your cold steep?

No lactose with orange - why not? I'm not sure if I would do it because I'm looking more for bitter chocolate flavors than sweet chocolate flavors, but orange cream is a common flavor combination so I'd say milky sweetness goes very well with orange.

 

[Queequeg]

Single hopping sounds good.

For cold steep soak the roasted grains overnight in your brewing liquor. Then strain via a bag and spare with more cold liquor. Adjust mash and pre boil volumes appropriately. Add 10 mins from ko

 

[zmanzorro]

if you're going to zest the orange yourself, avoid the white pith as much as you can. I tried an orange stout awhile back and the pith was overwhelmingly terrible and I don't believe i used too much. I would maybe even go as far as using orange extract or oil at bottling or secondary.