help improving 60% efficiency

[domdom]

After a moving cities and buying and fixing up a house over the past couple years, i’m finally getting back into brewing. i’ve brewed about 5 all grain batches and my efficiency has been around 60-65%. For a while I wasn’t too worried since it was at least consistent enough that i could adjust recipes around it. I know 75% seems to be what most recipes shoot for so I wanted to try and figure out what i could do to improve it. My current set up with as much detail as i can think of:

-10 gallon rubbermaid cooler mash tun with a circular stainless steel bread with some thin copper wire coiled inside to help keep from getting a stuck mash

-8 gallon bayou classic boil kettle, 4 gallon stock kettle to heat mash/sparge water.

-2 roller grain crusher with 1/16” gap. Below is a pick of what some pilsner malt looks like after one run through.

Process used:

-Brewtoad to store and calculate recipes. I do 5 gallon batches due to using 5 gallon food grade buckets. Net beer is usually around 4.5-4.75 gallons depending on if i dry hop and how much blow off.

-Brew365 mash calculator, typically set at 1.33 qts/lb thickness. I estimate using 0.5-1 gallon extra during mashing to help hit mash/mash out temps.

-Single infusion mash around 150-155 F for an hour. Recirculate 1 gallon to vorlauf.

-Batch sparge with 1 gallon recirculated when vorlaufing. I typically stir the mash a little. I usually only get it to around 160-165 for the 10 minute mash out.

-I’ve tried only opening the valve less for a slower flow the last few batches but have not noticed an improvement in efficiency.

Anything else I can look into? Can provide other info upon request. Was hoping to get a nice tax refund and maybe put it towards a Grandfather, but instead uncle sam took at $250 bite out of my ass.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

The usual culprit for low efficiency is grain crush. I'd try tightening the gap up a little finer and see if that helps.
Are you stirring your mash at all or when sparging? I usually stir the heck out of mine like it owes me money about 15min intervals through mash. And when I drain and dump in sparge water I'll stir again and let it sit 10-15min before draining(I batch sparge) I'd try giving that a shot. I typically do 5 gallon batches also and usually hit around 85% mash efficiency. That being said I don't think your crush looked all that bad though.

 

[WoodAle]

1/16" is 0.0625", which seems like a pretty large gap setting. I think most use somewhere between 0.030-0.050".

 

[WoodAle]

After getting a new mill and setting the gap at 0.035" I saw my efficiency go up 10 points to about 75%.

 

[domdom]

Are you stirring your mash at all or when sparging? I usually stir the heck out of mine like it owes me money about 15min intervals through mash.

i usually do a really good stir when i put the mash water in and then don't bother it for the rest of the mash. haven't bothered mid-mash due to concerns of the temperature dropping too much.

i suspected my crush might be the culprit but was worried that crushing too fine by cause issues (tannis, stuck mashes, etc). forgot to mention i got my current two roller mill 5 batches ago. before that i was using a cheap ass carona mill. I'll try crushing a little finer. also heard of some folks running their grains through the crusher twice. any input on that?

 

[RM-MN]

i usually do a really good stir when i put the mash water in and then don't bother it for the rest of the mash. haven't bothered mid-mash due to concerns of the temperature dropping too much.

i suspected my crush might be the culprit but was worried that crushing too fine by cause issues (tannis, stuck mashes, etc). forgot to mention i got my current two roller mill 5 batches ago. before that i was using a cheap ass carona mill. I'll try crushing a little finer. also heard of some folks running their grains through the crusher twice. any input on that?

If the grain will go through the crusher once without being crushed, it can make it the second time too. Tighten up the mill.

You can't get tannins by crushing too fine, that takes a high pH and hot water. Stuck mashes can happen if you get the mill set too tight but you need to tighten yours a bit and try a batch. Quoting one of the regulars on here, "tighten the mill until it scares you, then tighten it a bit more". You'll know if you get it too tight as you will have problems draining the tun.

 

[theseeker4]

i usually do a really good stir when i put the mash water in and then don't bother it for the rest of the mash. haven't bothered mid-mash due to concerns of the temperature dropping too much.

i suspected my crush might be the culprit but was worried that crushing too fine by cause issues (tannis, stuck mashes, etc). forgot to mention i got my current two roller mill 5 batches ago. before that i was using a cheap ass carona mill. I'll try crushing a little finer. also heard of some folks running their grains through the crusher twice. any input on that?

Crush will NOT cause tannins. I use a Corona mill for BIAB, and all my husks are shredded, and I still don't get any astringent taste in my beer. Tannins are extracted by having mash pH and temperature too high. Shredded husks might increase the rate of extraction, but if your temperatures and pH are good, you won't get tannin problems. As long as your crush isn't too fine to cause a stuck runnoff, you will be fine as tight as you can get it.

 

[IslandLizard]

3 things.

Crush:
Definitely need to tighten that gap. Here are some guides to what I typically use.

• Barley 0.028-0.032" (~credit card or a little tighter).
• Wheat, rye, and other small kernel grain as well as flaked goods 0.022-0.026" (American Express junk mail CC, or a little tighter).

Mashing:

• There's no real need for mashing out in batch sparges, as you can drain as fast as your grain bed allows, which means fully open after vorlauf.
• Also, preheat the mashtun with strike water 10-15 degrees higher than strike temp.
• Start mashing in when it's still 4-6 degrees higher than Brew365 tells you. You lose that extra heat during mashing in while you're stirring with the lid off. No calculator compensates for that initial heat loss during mash in. That way you won't need to add more boiling water to bring it up, which requires more stirring which loses more heat, hence you keep chasing your tail. You'll also save that water for a better sparge.
• Cover your mash with some aluminum foil. It keeps the heat in better. Poke holes in it with your temperature probe.
• No real need for stirring midway, but do a good stir at the end of the mash, before you vorlauf/lauter.
• Since you mash in at 1.33-1.50, there should be enough water left for a thorough sparge. Do a double sparge with equal volume, it maximizes extraction. Again stir really well to rinse the sugars out of those grains, and tip at the end.

Deadspace:
At the end of the lauter tip the tun forward to help drain the deadspace as much as possible. Those tuns have a fairly high placed bulkhead creating an overly large deadspace, leaving lots of high gravity wort behind. The siphon gets broken easily.

 

[Bobby_M]

How is it that your batch sparge is only 1 gallon? Maybe I'm reading that wrong. I think you mean that you batch sparge and you vorlauf a gallon before running off. As others asked, do you stir in your sparge water really well?

I concur that the crush is far too coarse.

Skip the mash out infusion at the end of the mash. It is a waste of tome when batch sparging. Save that volume for the batch sparge and raise the temp of the sparge infusion to 185f.

I also agree about the deadspace. When using a braid in a 10 gallon, it's a good idea to use a elbow or any necessary fittings to get the braid connection lower to the bottom.

 

[madscientist451]

I agree w/coarse crush comments. I've tried different things to cut time off my brew day, like skip the vorlauf and mash out, and have noticed lower gravity numbers.
My last brew, I took my time, vourlaf longer than I usually do, added 190F water for a mash out, ran off first runnings very slow and used 190F water in the batch sparge and was way above my expected numbers. Not a scientific experiment with limited variables, but the difference surprised me.
Another approach is to just say F--- it and add some more grain to your recipes to hit your gravity numbers and not worry about it.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Another approach is to just say F--- it and add some more grain to your recipes to hit your gravity numbers and not worry about it.

With only a 60% efficiency it takes 1/3 (33%) more grain to get to 80% numbers. So it "pays" to get to 80% efficiency in the first place. Now from 80-90% it's only 12%, which could be considered marginal.

I get 80-86% efficiency batch sparging in a rectangular cooler tun, which does have a dropped drain cavity.

 

[Micahmagne]

3 good write ups I like to reference on efficiency. Personally, I think that improving efficiency is best done while modulating the fewest variables possible (same recipe, same boil, same equipment), incremental changes each time to either temperature, time, or technique. Good luck!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=334813
Efficiency improvement

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=77125
Efficiency w batch sparging

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=75454
Hybrid fly sparge technique- interesting

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Personally, I think that improving efficiency is best done while modulating the fewest variables possible (same recipe, same boil, same equipment), incremental changes each time to either temperature, time, or technique. Good luck!

That's great for a science project or a Master's thesis, to learn and describe how each variable impacts the end results, but since we're brewing beer, I vow for using the brute force approach instead: Apply all possible improvements at once!

 

[madscientist451]

With only a 60% efficiency it takes 1/3 (33%) more grain to get to 80% numbers. So it "pays" to get to 80% efficiency in the first place. Now from 80-90% it's only 12%, which could be considered marginal.

Well yeah, it pays to get your efficiency figured out, but at the homebrew
level, the cost of the extra grain isn't that much.
On a 5 gallon batch, 60% vs 80% efficiency will cost you 5-15 cents per 12oz beer depending what you are paying for grain. Compared to the $5-8 my local pub charges for a pint its not really a significant amount of money.
Its not really all that hard to get good efficiency, but my point is that if someone wants to be laid back about it and go with what they get, its not that big of a deal.
Sh*t happens, so I always keep a supply of LME on hand in case I really screw up so I can salvage a batch without worry.
I do prefer to brew with high efficiency and hit my numbers, but for me I like to not fuss too much over a hobby that is supposed to be fun.

 

[IslandLizard]

Well yeah, it pays to get your efficiency figured out, but at the homebrew
level, the cost of the extra grain isn't that much.
On a 5 gallon batch, 60% vs 80% efficiency will cost you 5-15 cents per 12oz beer depending what you are paying for grain. Compared to the $5-8 my local pub charges for a pint its not really a significant amount of money.
Its not really all that hard to get good efficiency, but my point is that if someone wants to be laid back about it and go with what they get, its not that big of a deal.
Sh*t happens, so I always keep a supply of LME on hand in case I really screw up so I can salvage a batch without worry.
I do prefer to brew with high efficiency and hit my numbers, but for me I like to not fuss too much over a hobby that is supposed to be fun.

Agreed, at our scale it's not a huge price to pay. But for the same effort, you can easily increase efficiency from 60 to 80%. The big changer is a finer, or better said, properly milled grist for one's mashing system. And decreasing the amount of wort that stays behind in the mash tun with each lauter is usually easy.

The higher gravity you brew, the more those factors weigh in.

+1 to having a bag of extract to correct a missed gravity. I only missed my gravity once, and was not happy about it. Then there was the time I discovered 70% wheat and oats play havoc on your mash. 2 pounds of rice hulls and 3 hours later I finally had a kettle full.

 

[domdom]

How is it that your batch sparge is only 1 gallon? Maybe I'm reading that wrong. I think you mean that you batch sparge and you vorlauf a gallon before running off. As others asked, do you stir in your sparge water really well?

I see the confusion. to clarrify, i batch sparge using the amount suggested by brew365 (usually around 4-5 gallons) and when i vorlauf, i do 1 gallon worth of wort that i recirculate.

should i stir the mash as vigorously when sparging as when mashing? I do stir when sparging, but not as much.

Sounds like the crush is the main culprit. thanks for the reassurance that i can crush finer than that without issue. I'll tighten it up a bit and see. i'll probably try a simple pale ale or cream ale that i can easily adjust with DME or water if the gravity is too high or low and not affect the style too much.

 

[domdom]

I also wanted to check if anyone knew if how fast you drain your wort from the mash tun affects efficiency. let it fly all the way open or drain slowly?

 

[CHansen6]

When batch sparging, it shouldn't matter after you have the grain bed set. All the liquid should be the same gravity. I have an ice cube cooler with a fairly high elbow to the manifold. If I go too slow, the siphon breaks, and I leave over a gallon of wort in the tun. It was a little strange the first time I did that and got out more wort than sparge water put in.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Agreed. Batch sparging, the run off speed doesn't matter.

Without accurate measurements (volume, gravity, temperature) at several points (first runnings, and pre/post boil at the least) it's all guess work.

Yes it's probably crush, yes it's possible the sparge process. How much is each a contributing issue? You need more info.

Further reading at http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/methods/Efficiency

 

[Kalmah]

You could try upgrading from a braid to a false bottom. It was explained to me that the small surface area of a braid or bazooka screen could cause channeling when draining the mash, leaving some of the sugars behind.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

You could try upgrading from a braid to a false bottom. It was explained to me that the small surface area of a braid or bazooka screen could cause channeling when draining the mash, leaving some of the sugars behind.

Not relevant for batch sparging. You're stirring together the grains and sparge volume, channeling won't matter at all.

 

[domdom]

Agreed. Batch sparging, the run off speed doesn't matter.

does that apply just for sparging or does it also apply to the original mash out?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

does that apply just for sparging or does it also apply to the original mash out?

Both. If you're stirring the grains and wort/water/liquor before run off, then run off speed doesn't matter. If however you're doing a fly sparge, then you don't want to run off quickly.

 

[mongoose33]

i usually do a really good stir when i put the mash water in and then don't bother it for the rest of the mash. haven't bothered mid-mash due to concerns of the temperature dropping too much.

i suspected my crush might be the culprit but was worried that crushing too fine by cause issues (tannis, stuck mashes, etc). forgot to mention i got my current two roller mill 5 batches ago. before that i was using a cheap ass carona mill. I'll try crushing a little finer. also heard of some folks running their grains through the crusher twice. any input on that?

A few notes:

1. In the first pic, I'd swear I see uncrushed barley in your hand. Maybe it's just husks masquerading as uncrushed barley, but it looks that way to me.

2. I crush twice.

3. I stir a couple times during mash, and use a plastic paddle so as to not draw off heat with a metal spoon. I also stir once during my batch sparge.


If you're worried about having too fine a crush, why not toss some rice hulls in along w/ your finer crush? It'll help against a stuck mash, and you'll be able to easily see if a finer crush is helpful.

 

[Natdavis777]

Deadspace:
At the end of the lauter tip the tun forward to help drain the deadspace as much as possible. Those tuns have a fairly high placed bulkhead creating an overly large deadspace, leaving lots of high gravity wort behind. The siphon gets broken easily.

Ive seen so many people argue this. I feel this is one of the most important.

Leaving wort behind is leaving sugar behind. My second system had a 1.5 gal deadspace and I averaged 65% with good water and mash pH. ONCE I installed the proper diptube and got the rest of the sugars out, I was up in the 75-85% range.

 

[dmcman73]

Ive seen so many people argue this. I feel this is one of the most important.

Leaving wort behind is leaving sugar behind. My second system had a 1.5 gal deadspace and I averaged 65% with good water and mash pH. ONCE I installed the proper diptube and got the rest of the sugars out, I was up in the 75-85% range.

That's why when i built my MT I made a bottom draining one, no dead space at all.

BTW, are we talking Brew House efficiency?

 

[Natdavis777]

That's why when i built my MT I made a bottom draining one, no dead space at all.

BTW, are we talking Brew House efficiency?

I was more referencing mash efficiency since I was focused on the MLT in general. My current keggle MLT had a huge false bottom and no dip tube, so it literally left 1.5-2 gal of wort below the port. I was always in the 60s with fly sparging. My old setup (a rectangle cooler) that I gave my buddy, would get 75% easily with a batch sparge. The key was, we always tilted the cooler to get almost all of the wort out each time, hence not leaving sugary wort behind. After some research, and new FB and diptube from NorCal, and I was in the high 70s overnight.

When it comes to brewhouse efficiency, you also take into acount trub loss, boiloff, etc. I couldnt tell you what my brewhouse efficiency is...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Boil off doesn't affect brewhouse eff.

Brewhouse = mash * ratio of wort left behind in kettle.

Example leaving .5 gallon behind in kettle of a 6G post boil chilled volume,
75 % mash * (5.5/6) = 68.75% brewhouse

 

[Natdavis777]

I only included boiloff from an article from BeerSmith

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/11/0...vs-mash-efficiency-in-all-grain-beer-brewing/

"Brewhouse Efficiency

A real world brewing system has additional losses after the mash process is complete. These includes boil off, deadspace during the boil and transfer and trub losses (the gunk left after the boil). Each of these will further reduce your original gravity into the fermenter. The number that captures all of these losses plus the mash efficiency is called the brewhouse efficiency. Brewhouse efficiency is typically a number in the range of 72% for most home brewing size systems.

Since brewhouse efficiency includes mash, boil, transfer and trub losses, it can be applied directly to the “ideal” number we discussed earlier. So again using the example from above, our 10 lbs of malt gives us 74 points under “ideal” conditions. Using a system with 72% brewhouse efficiency we come up with a potential of (74* 72%) = 53.2 points which is an original gravity of 1.053.

So brewhouse efficiency is simply a measure of the overall efficiency of the brewing system encompassing both the efficiency of the mash and lauter process as well as losses in the system during boil, transfer and volume lost to trub."

Though I understand the focus more on loss in the kettle, wort left in hoses, trub loss, etc, and not boiloff itself.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

God there are so many problems with that paragraph...

Boil off doesn't affect it at all. It concentrates the wort, increasing the OG, but does not affect any efficiciency.

Moreover, a loss between mashing and transfering to the fermenter doesn't reduce the OG, it lowers the efficiency. If you have 1.060 post boil, leaving behind half a gallon of wort doesn't change the fact that it's 1.060.

Brad has done a number of great things for homebrewers, but his "technical" articles leave something to be desired. Repeat after me, boiling does not sterilize.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

check your rollers,mine were not even effecting efficiency.An easy adjustment is sticking a gift card between the rollers.The card should roll through easy but snug.Takes the quess work out it and will set rollers to perfect gap.My efficiency went up after doing this.

 

[domdom]

brewed today using edwort's haus pale ale recipe (10.5 lb grain total) with the only change being an extra oz of hops at flame out. I tightened my rollers on my mill and milled last night. I still noticed some kernels going through un-crushed so i double milled the whole grain bill. mashed 3.5 gal at 152 for an hour, and stirred vigorously before mash out and sparging w/ 5.25 gal. ended up with OG of 1.047 with the recipe target being 1.051. brewtoad calculated this at about 65% efficiency. a nice improvement, but would like to up it a little more. maybe i'm calculating efficiency incorrectly?

 

[RM-MN]

brewed today using edwort's haus pale ale recipe (10.5 lb grain total) with the only change being an extra oz of hops at flame out. I tightened my rollers on my mill and milled last night. I still noticed some kernels going through un-crushed so i double milled the whole grain bill. mashed 3.5 gal at 152 for an hour, and stirred vigorously before mash out and sparging w/ 5.25 gal. ended up with OG of 1.047 with the recipe target being 1.051. brewtoad calculated this at about 65% efficiency. a nice improvement, but would like to up it a little more. maybe i'm calculating efficiency incorrectly?

If you are getting any grains through whole your mill gap is still too wide. Tighten it up....then tighten it some more.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, if you have whole kernels coming through, running it through again at the same gap isn't going to do much. I get requests from several customers a day asking for me to double crush. I actually close the gap down for a fine crush instead. A correct gap is at the very least not going to let even a single kernel through without busting it apart. Once you get this dialed in, you'll be over 70%.

I see a lot of people misunderstanding the term "mash out" and using it in place of "draining the mash tun" or "running off". A "mash out" is a specific term to describe raising the whole mash temp up to 170F and holding it for several minutes to affect a chemical change. This step is not necessary in batch sparging. You'll vorlauf until generally grain free and run it to the kettle as quick as it will flow. Agree if your drain port is even a 1/2" above the bottom of the cooler, prop the far side of the cooler up by a few inches to angle towards the port while draining. Deadspace (wort that doesn't drain out) will kill efficiency. When you add the batch sparge water, stir it in vigorously for 3 minutes. Vorlauf, run it off to the kettle full flow.

 

[aangel]

I highly recommend getting a feeler gauge to dial in your grain mill. Between using one of those and doing a slow fly sparge, I hit a mash efficiency of 92% last brew.