Help ID bitter off-flavor (taste like tonic)

[brewzombie]

If you go with bleach (and you might as well try before pitching everything) here is what we were told by the EPA to use to disinfect equipment and for sampling: 30 mls bleach in 1 gallon is around 400 mg/L. This will not harm faucets or fixtures, but will disinfect very well. It rinses easily and can be used throughout brewing area in case air born yeast/bacteria are elevated. Making a five gallon batch will let you soak everything overnight.
Also, try getting a hydrometer reading at bottling, then do a hydro reading a month later on a bad batch. See if your number drops much lower. This could help you discern if it is a bacteria/yeast that is the cause.

Do your bottles develop a ring around the inside of the neck at the beer level?

Lou2row: Assuming you're directing your comment to me, I did end up using bleach, but only 1 oz (30mL) per gal, in combination with 1 oz vinegar per gal. I only soaked about 1 hr, but other posts suggested this would work well.

I'll take a hydrometer reading at bottling, but I guess I'll have to let a bottle get flat to take a hydrometer reading after carbonation. I assume you're looking for the FG to keep dropping as a sign of infection.

I did not notice a ring in the bottles with this last batch (which had the flavour). However, they have conditioned 3 weeks and been in the fridge for several weeks if that makes a difference. Would a ring be a sign of an infection?

 

[brewzombie]

Take a very close look at your water, in particular Sodium, Sulfate, and Chloride....also your alkalinity. Also get a pH of your mash. Acidifying your sparge water to between 5-6 pH also helps. You have tried a lot of things and it appears water is the common factor.

Hi Helibrewer: Water is one of the things I'm playing with. My water is essentially RO (super soft tap water treated with campden in the mash/sparge and CaCl2 and CaSO4 in the kettle). The mash pH was predicted at 5.4. I do not acidify my sparge water. Should I? My tap water has a pH of 7, but no dissolved buffers to hold a low pH. I could add the CaSO4 to the sparge water maybe... I'll buy a pH meter one day.

 

[kylevester]

Hi Helibrewer: Water is one of the things I'm playing with. My water is essentially RO (super soft tap water treated with campden in the mash/sparge and CaCl2 and CaSO4 in the kettle). The mash pH was predicted at 5.4. I do not acidify my sparge water. Should I? My tap water has a pH of 7, but no dissolved buffers to hold a low pH. I could add the CaSO4 to the sparge water maybe... I'll buy a pH meter one day.

Your tap water should be pH 7 or so, EPA rules.

Soft due to a traditional ion exchange water softener or an RO system or just a natural water source that's soft?

An ion exchange system will give you lots of sodium ions and can adversely affect your beer. If you're starting with a very hard water source, you'll get a beer that tastes like salt.

 

[brewzombie]

Your tap water should be pH 7 or so, EPA rules.

Soft due to a traditional ion exchange water softener or an RO system or just a natural water source that's soft?

An ion exchange system will give you lots of sodium ions and can adversely affect your beer. If you're starting with a very hard water source, you'll get a beer that tastes like salt.

My intended point with the sparge water comment was that the water has insignificant alkalinity (and neutral pH) so I shouldn't need to acidify it. At least, that's what I read here on the forum.

In answer to your question, my water is naturally soft (essentially RO) straight from the tap. No sodium issues.

 

[YZ250]

Hey Brewzombie,

Do you cold crash your beers before bottling or do you bottle at 18 or 20 degrees? (celcius) The fault in mine is always more pronounced when the beer is clear, cold and carbed....however doesnt get worse or better with age (have a pale ale thats 3 or 4 months in the keg and its as bad as the day I kegged it).

I had my mate around on the weekend and he concurred that it was the same fault in all the beers (I gave him 5) and he also concurred that the fault seems to be getting less pronounced with each batch I brew, which is something I noticed when I went through my brew log the other day. This is in line with a tip I got on another thread on this forum - that my brewkit is contaminated.

I mentioned earlier that I made my brewkit myself, what I didnt mention is that after stainless welding you need to passivate the welds or they will rust. I did this with a commercial passivating gel thats highly acidic. Theres a chance I didnt wash it off thoroughly enough and thats whats causing my problems. Soaked the kit in a basic soloution to neutralise any acid over the weekend and will brew again soon and keep you posted.

 

[brewzombie]

Hey Brewzombie,

Do you cold crash your beers before bottling or do you bottle at 18 or 20 degrees? (celcius) The fault in mine is always more pronounced when the beer is clear, cold and carbed....however doesnt get worse or better with age (have a pale ale thats 3 or 4 months in the keg and its as bad as the day I kegged it).

Hi YZ250. I don't cold crash before bottling (no means to do so), but I would say the fault does seem to worsen once carbed/chilled. It usually worsens with aging though.

I had my mate around on the weekend and he concurred that it was the same fault in all the beers (I gave him 5) and he also concurred that the fault seems to be getting less pronounced with each batch I brew, which is something I noticed when I went through my brew log the other day. This is in line with a tip I got on another thread on this forum - that my brewkit is contaminated.

I mentioned earlier that I made my brewkit myself, what I didnt mention is that after stainless welding you need to passivate the welds or they will rust. I did this with a commercial passivating gel thats highly acidic. Theres a chance I didnt wash it off thoroughly enough and thats whats causing my problems. Soaked the kit in a basic soloution to neutralise any acid over the weekend and will brew again soon and keep you posted.

So you're saying you may have an acidic residue that is being partially removed with each batch you brew? I hope for your sake that is your problem. I'm using a homemade cooler with SS braid for a mashtun and an aluminum pot for a brew kettle. I don't have any welds so that's not a possibility for me. My off-flavour has diminished somewhat recently, but I chalk that up to my diligence in improving my process.

I just bottled this past weekend and wasn't sure whether I detected anything before bottling. I usually don't notice much of anything, but my brew buddy and I agreed that there was "something" there, but neither of us can really put it into words. We'll have to wait and see if it develops into the strong tonic bitterness that is so familiar after 3 weeks of bottle conditioning and a few days in the fridge. I'll report back when I know.

 

[BryanJ]

Do you use an electric heating element for the boil?

 

[brewzombie]

Do you use an electric heating element for the boil?

No. I use a propane burner and try to maintain a vigorous boil.

 

[helibrewer]

My intended point with the sparge water comment was that the water has insignificant alkalinity (and neutral pH) so I shouldn't need to acidify it. At least, that's what I read here on the forum.

In answer to your question, my water is naturally soft (essentially RO) straight from the tap. No sodium issues.

Acidifying the sparge water keeps the pH low while straining the grains, helping to prevent tannin extraction. You lose significant buffering after the first runnings.

 

[brewzombie]

Acidifying the sparge water keeps the pH low while straining the grains, helping to prevent tannin extraction. You lose significant buffering after the first runnings.

I completely get what you mean. How would you propose I do so without a pH meter and without any real buffering capacity in my sparge water to start with? Remember the buffering capacity of my sparge water itself is essentially zero. My thinking is that since I batch sparge and my water has no alkalinity to raise the pH that I'll be fine without acidifying it (ie the remaining buffering capacity of the highly diluted wort will suffice). I usually just run off the first runnings then do a single batch sparge. I've considered doing 2 instead (for efficiency reasons), but haven't tried it yet. If you still think I have a problem, I'd be happy to try acidifying if you can recommend a foolproof way without overshooting the target pH without a pH meter.

 

[YZ250]

"So you're saying you may have an acidic residue that is being partially removed with each batch you brew?'

Im hoping thats it...I soaked my entire rig in PBW (ph 11.5) and then rinsed it heavily, filled with tap water and left overnight. It tests at 8.0, and a control sample (tap water in a clean glass) tests at 8.0 too...so its fair to say there is nothing acidic in my pot anymore. I am going to brew again tonight to see if I cant nut this out. If this doesnt fix it, im pretty sure its my sparging procedure thats causing me grief.

I considered the possibility that its my elec burners scorching wort but dismissed that. There is no evidence at all of scorching on the elements after a boil and no burnt flavours in the beer - even in pale, light lagers that I have made with this kit.

Brewzombie - your issue could be due to the ferment. Do you temp control your beers when fermenting or just pitch yeast and hope?

 

[brewzombie]

"Brewzombie - your issue could be due to the ferment. Do you temp control your beers when fermenting or just pitch yeast and hope?

I do control fermentation temps, using a water-filled cooler, ice bottles and an electric thermometer. I've kept the temps at 19-21 C throughout primary, secondary and bottle conditioning. I've been wondering lately if I should start measuring the temp inside the primary (plastic), in case the inside temp was higher, but had always thought with a water bath that the temps would transfer efficiently to the inside of the bucket...but I'll definitely do this next time. I have a thermowell so this should be easy. Not sure why I never bothered before. I'll also aim for a slightly cooler target temp, maybe 17-19 C, to ensure I'm avoiding any hot fermentation flavours, although Wyeast 1056 should be fine up to 22 C.

YZ250: What's your sparging protocol: Fly or batch? What's your water alkalinity, pH and temp?

 

[YZ250]

I batch sparge and have never been measuring my sparge water ph which I think may be whats causing the issue....as its over 8.0 at my house.

Went to a mates last night and we measured these 5 crap beers I have. They came in at 4.8-5.5 (most around the 4.8 mark). This is way higher than what beer is meant to be (3.9 -4.2). Gordon Strongs book says you can adjust beer down with food grade acid to improve its flavour, so we gave that a try. I was skeptical before doing this, but boy...what a difference. The adjusted beer was rounded, almost clean and drinkable. The fault mellowed out significantly once treated. We did it to two beers and it was more obvious in one beer but the acid treatment definitely improved both.

We also agreed that the taste was tannins...it was pretty easy to pick up when we sat down and thoroughly tasted these beers.

So im almost certain (at the risk of putting the kiss of death on things) that my problem has been sparging with water thats way out of range (8.0 plus versus 5.5). Grab a ph meter of ebay and make sure your phs are correct - they can be had for as little as $10 and its evidently a very important thing to keep an eye on in your brewery.

 

[YZ250]

Tasted my first beer made with adjusted sparge water (ph 5.5). There isnt any hint of the bitter, tonic water or astringent taste. Pretty sure that was my problem.

 

[Wynne-R]

YZ250
Glad you’re having better beer and thanks for writing back to let us know!

Very interesting that acidulation helps already brewed beer.

 

[brewzombie]

Tasted my first beer made with adjusted sparge water (ph 5.5). There isnt any hint of the bitter, tonic water or astringent taste. Pretty sure that was my problem.

Congrats YZ250! I'm still waiting to crack one of my own, made after my many adjustments (including bleaching my plastic, improved sanitation, CaCl2 & CaSO4 additions to boil, and more accurate measurement of water volumes and priming sugar). Here's hoping we both solved our problems.

 

[YZ250]

"Very interesting that acidulation helps already brewed beer."

I couldnt believe it either. I was extremely dubious when my mate rang me up suggesting we try this.

Good luck brew zombie - I have my fingers crossed for you. Report back when you have a taste.

 

[brewzombie]

So, I`ve tasted my beer after my many modifications (have been tasting it for several weeks, actually). The situation has indeed improved, but I still notice an undesirable lingering bitter flavour; it`s just not intense and is now more of a bad after taste. Here`s a list of some of my changes based on feedback from this post.

1. I paid close attention to volumes during all steps of the process. I still had more headroom in the secondary than I would have liked, but carbonation is now spot on thanks to adding graduations to the secondary to see exactly how much sugar to add at bottling. I was definitely overcarbonating before.

2. Clarity of the final chilled beer is much improved, probably thanks to adding CaCl2 and CaSO4 to the boil kettle. I used to get crazy chill haze.

3. I`m pretty confident that there`s no significant infection (wild yeast or bacteria) following my soaking of plastics in bleach+vinegar and replacing the siphon hose. There was no geyser bottles or overcarbing noticed. I`ve increased the care I take with sanitation, rinsing and exposure to contaminants. For example, I now chill the hot wort inside at the kitchen sink instead of in the back yard and cover the immersion chiller and kettle with foil while it cools. EVERYTHING gets soaked or scrubbed in PBW and rinsed (instead of just rinsing out my plastics and relying on starsan next time to sanitise - I still sanitise with starsan before use of course).

4. I`ve not used a pH meter yet (I`ll get around to buying one), but the local homebrew club told me not to bother for a pale ale and I used several of the available spreadsheets to predict mash pH and I was well within normal predicted pH ranges (for what that`s worth). I batch sparge with Vancouver tap water (essentially RO - pH 7) and don`t expect it to be alkaline.

5. I monitored my fermentation temp (as usual) using my water bath setup to keep temps below 22 C (usually 19-20C), but will next time monitor the temp inside the bucket instead of the water bath...it could be spiking during initial fermentation. I also monitored my bottle conditioning temps just to be sure and kept temps in a similar range. I used the 1-2-3 week fermentation method. Next time I may also aim for a lower temp range of 17-19C.

VERDICT: I`m not there yet, but I`m encouraged to try again. The bitterness used to be so overpowering it was impossible to finish a bottle. Perhaps some comments on my recipe would help. It was based on Yooper`s pale ale, but ended up being a little lower in gravity. I think I`ll aim to up the gravity more to the original recipe OG of 1.058 or maybe I`ll try a Mirror Pond clone (love that beer) since it has a simpler malt profile.

6 GAL BATCH

GRAINS (Total: 12.64 lbs)
5.75 lb Gambrinus ESB (3.0 SRM)
3.45 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
2.30 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
0.57 lb Carastan Malt - 30-37L (30.0 SRM)
0.57 lb Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)

HOPS (Total: 5 oz)
1.0 oz Centennial (pellet/leaf) [10%] (FWH)
2.0 oz Cascade (pellet/leaf) [6-9%] (20 min)
2.0 oz Cascade (pellet) (Dry Hop 14 days - in secondary)

YEAST
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056)

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG (65% efficiency 6 gal) - Forgot to measure actual
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG -measured 1.012 after 3.5 and 4.5 days b/f secondary
Est Bitterness: 40-50 IBU

Thoughts? This forum post has been transformational so far. Thanks to everyone who's offered their advice. It's much appreciated.

 

[thetmaxx]

I have had an off flavor that I think you are describing as well. It only comes out in my highly hopped beers with no dark grains. ie, IPA and a Black IPA that I mashed the dark grains too late and didn't get anything but color. I think I've read the dark grains can affect pH?

I've been getting better and better with my mash temps, sanitization, and water adjustments and have subsequently been making better beers, but my hoppy beers never come out well which is a shame because they are my favorite being a West Coaster, LOL. They have the bitter tonic aftertaste.

Thank you for posting all of your updates, I think I need to start checking my pH and making the appropriate adjustments.

 

[brewzombie]

I have had an off flavor that I think you are describing as well. It only comes out in my highly hopped beers with no dark grains. ie, IPA and a Black IPA that I mashed the dark grains too late and didn't get anything but color. I think I've read the dark grains can affect pH?

I've been getting better and better with my mash temps, sanitization, and water adjustments and have subsequently been making better beers, but my hoppy beers never come out well which is a shame because they are my favorite being a West Coaster, LOL. They have the bitter tonic aftertaste.

Thank you for posting all of your updates, I think I need to start checking my pH and making the appropriate adjustments.

Hi thetmaxx,

Thanks for your post. I'm a westcoast hop-lover as well. I don't have any updates to report, but will do so when I do. I have a few new diagnostic toys to try out thanks to Santa, including a pH meter and refractometer, so I'm hoping to ferret out any flaws in my process. Cheers!

 

[Skiffy]

Any updates here? I'm having similar issues!

 

[YZ250]

Well I made a beer on the weekend, and I can confirm some interesting things about my fault (mentioned several times throughout this tread)...its present after the mash, as well as the boil. Im pretty sure that it is most likely I am tasting tannins.

I eventually convinced myself that the fault was wort scorching from my electric elements, so I pulled them out of my brewery and at the same time I stopped using the stainless bag that I made (similar concept to the malt pipe in a braumeister) and went back to a plastic bag (BIAB). Fault was undetectable in the next 6 or 8 brews that I did. On the weekend, I used the stainless bag/maltpipe on a brown ale recipe and the fault was back with a vengeance...immediately noticeable after mashing, and then then also after boiling.

I have a lot of dead space in my rig because of the home made maltpipe...so my grain to water ration in the mash is much looser than recommended (around 5L per kilo of grain). I think this is the cause of my problems, and I think the problem is tannin extraction. So id be going through the brewing literature on tannins and doing what you can to your process to remove/reduce them from your brewing.