Hefeweizen with lots of banana flavor

[njohnsoncs]

I'm thinking of brewing the following Hefeweizen partial mash: https://www.love2brew.com/German-Hefeweizen-Partial-Mash-Kit-p/sbk023b.htm.

I have the following options for yeast:

1. Safbrew WB-06 wheat yeast
2. Danstar Munich wheat yeast
3. White Labs Hefeweizen yeast (WLP300).

I like Hefeweizens which have a strong banana flavor. I believe this comes only from the yeast and fermentation temperature (higher gives more banana). Which yeast would you recommend for a strong banana flavor and at what temperature should I ferment?

Any other tips to get a nice flavoring?

Thanks!
Nick

 

[jtratcliff]

I think I've heard that under pitching might give you more banana esters, too. Not sure though, so don't my word for it without a confirmation googling...

 

[njohnsoncs]

I've heard that too. I've only pitched with dry yeast so, if I wanted to under pitch, would I only pitch 1/2 the packet or 3/4 or something?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

My last hefe was with Wyeast 3068 at 70-71° and it was all banana and no clove. Not sure how that translates, but my understanding is that warmer = more banana and cooler = more clove.

 

[flars]

Here's a chart for WB06. Pitch rate and fermentation temperature for what to expect from the yeast. Low pitch rate and high fermentation temps = more banana.

 

[IchLiebeBier]

I've used WLP300, Wyeast 3068 and Safbrew WB-06 for testing. I also have a neighbor who's native Bavarian, so he's my German brew tester.

He and I agreed that WB-06 was good, but it wasn't close to a true Hefeweizen. Wyeast 3068 is my go-to. It makes a very good Hefeweizen.

I would recommend underpitching and keeping the temp a bit high. I followed Jamil Z's advice in BCS and brewed one at 63 deg and I did not like the result at all. Not much banana.

 

[njohnsoncs]

I guess I could purchase Wyeast 3068 (https://www.love2brew.com/Wyeast-3068-Weihenstephan-Wheat-Yeast-p/ly3068.htm) if this is likely to give strong banana flavor especially with under pitching.

I've only used dry yeast and this is liquid so I guess I'll have to figure that out...

Thanks for the comments!

 

[jodell]

I guess I could purchase Wyeast 3068 (https://www.love2brew.com/Wyeast-3068-Weihenstephan-Wheat-Yeast-p/ly3068.htm) if this is likely to give strong banana flavor especially with under pitching.

I've only used dry yeast and this is liquid so I guess I'll have to figure that out...

Thanks for the comments!

Liquid yeast is not much different from dry, especially since you are purposely underpitchong this one. Clean beer styles you will want to make a starter, and there are plenty of treads on how to do that

 

[njohnsoncs]

OK so I'm going to be brewing the hefe this weekend. I purchased Wyeast 3068 smackpack. One question I have is how do I underpitch? Is there a number of yeast cells I should aim for?

 

[Lefou]

I've used WLP300, Wyeast 3068 and Safbrew WB-06 for testing. I also have a neighbor who's native Bavarian, so he's my German brew tester.

He and I agreed that WB-06 was good, but it wasn't close to a true Hefeweizen. Wyeast 3068 is my go-to. It makes a very good Hefeweizen.

I would recommend underpitching and keeping the temp a bit high. I followed Jamil Z's advice in BCS and brewed one at 63 deg and I did not like the result at all. Not much banana.

I've done the cool side of hefe yeast brewing and my experience shows certain yeasts will favor clove. Warm the ferment up a few degrees and you will get amyl acetate (banana). Experience with WLP351 - good clove with a cool ferment and ferulic acid rest. WLP320 - very mild, no real clove or banana, muted esters when fermented cool.
Have seen reviews that WLP300 is leans heavily to the banana side when warmed up.
Not all hefe yeasts perform the same under similar conditions, but finding the right yeast and manipulating the brew environment can really help.

 

[BigCrazyAl]

My last brew (Weizenbock) called for 300 million cells. I fermented at 62-64F using wyeast 3068. I'd say the banana and clove flavors were balanced if not somewhat more banana forward at timed. My OG was 1.080 though so you may need to scale that a bit.

Hope that's a good reference to base your decision off of.

 

[flars]

The chart I posted mimics the results with WY 3068. I over pitch 3068 and ferment cool. I prefer the clove flavors to be in the foreground and light banana as an after taste.

 

[Lefou]

Oh, and one more thing. Don't forget to use a blow off. The fermentation is pretty vigorous, to say the least.
As a n00b browsing the LBHS, it was my stated intent to use WLP351 to make a nice partial mash wheat brew. The first thing the brewshop employee grabbed from the shelf was an orange cap and tubing for my carboy. It was one of the smartest early purchases I made.

 

[Lefou]

The chart I posted mimics the results with WY 3068. I over pitch 3068 and ferment cool. I prefer the clove flavors to be in the foreground and light banana as an after taste.

I like balanced, mild banana and clove when doing a German-style brew ....something akin to Franziskaner's wheat imports.
West Coast American-style is OK, too. I used WLP320 and US hops for a different hopping taste. Esters were muted, as advertised, especially if you like minimal clove and banana influence.

 

[AZBeer]

I use WLP300 in the hefe that I make for my wife, and I ferment @ 70F. Banana is noticeable, but not overpowering. Plays nice with the orange peel and coriander.

 

[njohnsoncs]

The chart I posted mimics the results with WY 3068. I over pitch 3068 and ferment cool. I prefer the clove flavors to be in the foreground and light banana as an after taste.

My last brew (Weizenbock) called for 300 million cells. I fermented at 62-64F using wyeast 3068. I'd say the banana and clove flavors were balanced if not somewhat more banana forward at timed. My OG was 1.080 though so you may need to scale that a bit.

Hope that's a good reference to base your decision off of.

I'm planning on fermenting at 70 - 72 F with 3068. From some of the starter calculators I've used, they recommend about 180 billion cells (OG 1.051, wort vol 5.0 gal, liquid yeast date 4/17/17). If I want to under pitch, how many yeast cells should I use, 150 billion? 100 billion? 50 billion?

 

[BigCrazyAl]

I'm planning on fermenting at 70 - 72 F with 3068. From some of the starter calculators I've used, they recommend about 180 billion cells (OG 1.051, wort vol 5.0 gal, liquid yeast date 4/17/17). If I want to under pitch, how many yeast cells should I use, 150 billion? 100 billion? 50 billion?

These may help. Separate experiments with pitch rates and another with temperature as the variable for hefe yeast.

There's no quick answer unfortunately.

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=154

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=164

 

[njohnsoncs]

These may help. Separate experiments with pitch rates and another with temperature as the variable for hefe yeast.

There's no quick answer unfortunately.

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=154

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=164

Excellent links! For WLP300 , it seems like a lower pitch rate of 50% at a fixed fermentation temp of 65 F gives more banana which is what we could expect, i.e., under pitching produces more esters. However, in the next experiments, for the same yeast, at 50% pitch rate and fermentation temps of 62, 66, 70 F, the lower temp of 62 F gave more banana than the higher temps. This goes against what is expected. I wondering why.

This is for different yeast, so I'm not sure what I can take away from it but I'm going to, sort of, arbitrarily go with 50% pitch, so just pitch my smackpack rather than make a starter, and ferment at 70 F (middle of it's range of 64-75F).

 

[BigCrazyAl]

I think it shows that pitch rate has more influence on the flavor. I agree with your educated guess. Take good notes for adjustment going forward. This is probably as close as you'll get to knowing how it will turn out without physically brewing it.

Good luck! I enjoyed the brew I did with that yeast and I hope you do too!

 

[nrjones89]

This is gonna be all about your yeast selection because the banana aroma comes from ester production. IMO fermenting at high temps (above 70F) could lead to unintended off-flavors, like bandaid and bubblegum.

Pitch temps of around 58-60 and steady fermentation temps of around 66-70F. Try a yeast such as WYeast Weihenstephan and make a starter about 16 hours before the pitch. I would not underpitch. Add some additional malt, like Crystal 10L, to your pils/wheat bill. This balances your hefe to be a little darker/sweeter and accentuate the banana esters. If you're doing all grain, increase the ratio of wheat to barley, as wheat has more of the ferulic acid. There are other techniques you can do to maximize ferulic acid, such as a ferulic acid rest during the mash. The last thing to possibly consider would be using a wide flat vessel for fermentation, like a bucket, rather than something tall and narrow. Hop flavors are most irrelevant with this style as long as you achieve the appropriate amount of bittering during the boil. I've found that around 15 IBU is enough to balance the banana ester flavor and maltiness.

My first Hefeweizen recipe was the following (5 g. batch) and it had a strong banana flavor:
Weihenstephan Wyeast w/ starter
6 lb. Briess Wheat DME
4 oz. Crystal 10L
Hallertauer hops - 1 oz. 60 minute boil

Pitched at 58F and fermentation was a steady 66F. I bottle conditioned it with a carb volume of 3.6, which was perfect.

 

[dmtaylor]

Having just made two hefeweizens with WB-06 with different pitching rates, I can tell you.... both had a little banana and no clove. But the banana is pretty low. Not a banana bomb, that's for sure. At a higher pitching rate it also produced red apple, at least for me.

 

[Smellyglove]

imho WB-06 is better suited for a wit, than a hefeweizen.

 

[dmtaylor]

imho WB-06 is better suited for a wit, than a hefeweizen.

Disagree. WB-06 isn't really good for anything. It also adds a strange lacto-like tartness. Maybe could use it for a Berliner weisse, that's about it. Good old WLP400 is great in a witbier.

 

[Smellyglove]

Disagree. WB-06 isn't really good for anything. It also adds a strange lacto-like tartness. Maybe could use it for a Berliner weisse, that's about it. Good old WLP400 is great in a witbier.

Yeah it drops the pH further than comparing to a hefeweizen strain. What I meant was that it is better suited for a wit, than a hefeweizen, since you can get really spicy phenols out of it. Not that it's a great choice for wit's, but I think it resembles more a wit if fermented high and underpitched, than a hefeweizen. Citrusy and slightly phenolic.

 

[dmtaylor]

And I got none of that when I fermented at 70 F and underpitched.

 

[Smellyglove]

And I got none of that when I fermented at 70 F and underpitched.

One of my regulars during the summer is pitch and hold for four days at 75F, then lower to 68F, then bottle at day 8-10. I use a whole pack for 3.7 gallons, no oxygen or shaking and no rehydration.

 

[Mike_kever_kombi]

I guess I could purchase Wyeast 3068 (https://www.love2brew.com/Wyeast-3068-Weihenstephan-Wheat-Yeast-p/ly3068.htm) if this is likely to give strong banana flavor especially with under pitching.

I've only used dry yeast and this is liquid so I guess I'll have to figure that out...

Thanks for the comments!

I too like bannana bomb hefes. Through much trial and error I have found that I like Wyeast liquid yeast, with no starter, pitched at 68* then ramped up 2* a day, for 7 days.

Gives a nice banana finish, with clove underpinnings. I have found this taste to be the best for me.

 

[Soulshine2]

I'm thinking of brewing the following Hefeweizen partial mash: https://www.love2brew.com/German-Hefeweizen-Partial-Mash-Kit-p/sbk023b.htm.

I have the following options for yeast:

1. Safbrew WB-06 wheat yeast
2. Danstar Munich wheat yeast
3. White Labs Hefeweizen yeast (WLP300).

I like Hefeweizens which have a strong banana flavor. I believe this comes only from the yeast and fermentation temperature (higher gives more banana). Which yeast would you recommend for a strong banana flavor and at what temperature should I ferment?

Any other tips to get a nice flavoring?

Thanks!
Nick

WB-06 is what I used . My first AG batch was a hefeweizen. After many months bottled I just had a couple last night . When I poured it carefully , the beer was a beautiful clear golden color with a nice head and lacing ,nice crisp taste , banana and clove flavors .

 

[dmtaylor]

One of my regulars during the summer is pitch and hold for four days at 75F, then lower to 68F, then bottle at day 8-10. I use a whole pack for 3.7 gallons, no oxygen or shaking and no rehydration.

That is a huge overpitch. I don't know what it will do at that pitching rate.

 

[Smellyglove]

That is a huge overpitch. I don't know what it will do at that pitching rate.

It works. If I rehydrate, I'm not getting the phenols, it becomes two different beers then. If I'd use less yeast I know I'd get even more.

This is the beer that makes me believe in that rehydration really helps on viability numbers.

 

[dmtaylor]

So our experiences do not agree. That's fine.

 

[Smellyglove]

So our experiences do not agree. That's fine.

Well, you fermented at 21C, I'm running it at 24C. A friend of my cloned my beer, just by reading my recipe off the internet. He sent it to me, not telling what kind of beer it was, I could immediately tell that this was "my" beer.

 

[nrjones89]

It's interesting to read about others' experiences with different yeast strains. WB-06, from what I have read, is best used for American unfiltered wheat styles because the phenol/estery flavors will be reduced and the wheat malts will shine through. It would probably produce a Hefeweizen similar to Pinkus organic Hefe, which is very bready and malty. I strongly recommend Weihenstephan if you want high esters.

If you have a favorite type of German Hefe, since they are often bottle conditioned, you can probably produce your own culture.