Head scratching

[DBhomebrew]

When I say I use a gentle boil, I mean a gentle boil. 212°F with hot break and hops material visibly moving. A slight rise or blister on the surface.

Edit: A Level 2 Soft Boil as shown in the video below.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is a good visual reference for boil intensity.

 

[PCABrewing]

As for commercial brewers, I really can't say what they do, exactly.

Well the last time I was in a commercial brewery was when Schlitz was still in Milwaukee.
That was one or two years ago, maybe three .
But I do remember getting to look into the boil kettle, they had the hatch open.
The boil was not quite a vigorous boil, I'd call it rolling.

Today I bet they (other breweries) capture that water that they boil off. It is even more precious than the energy used to heat it.

Edit: I was in the Heineken brewery in Amsterdam more recently but it wasn't the real brewery, it was an old brewhouse that they fit-out to be a tourist attraction.
Best thing I got out of that was a couple little 6 - 8 oz. Heineken souvenir glasses .

 

[jambop]

When I say I use a gentle boil, I mean a gentle boil. 212°F with hot break and hops material visibly moving. A slight rise or blister on the surface.

Edit: A Level 2 Soft Boil as shown in the video below.

Hi going to take a look at the ref you gave me BUT my concerns are about the environment and the costs associated with the boiling process. The wort is still at approx 100C as you point out whether you have a violent boil or a gentle boil.
I just do not have the brewing experience or knowledge but I think we could be singing from the same hymn sheet? However for me there must be some pretty outstanding reasons to want to burn so much extra energy while boiling the wort?

Edit
Having read the post it would appear that traditional habits are the driving force behind the violent boiling and high volume losses techniques used by some brewers who are not adapting to not newly gained brewing knowledge ?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Having read the post it would appear that traditional habits are the driving force behind the violent boiling and high volume losses techniques used by some brewers who are not adapting to not newly gained brewing knowledge ?

There is a body of knowledge that talks about adapting newly found knowledge ("diffusion of innovation").

Long story short, it can (and perhaps should) take years for a group (or society) to see the value (and safety) in a new approach. The proof of the new approach falls on the innovators and early adapters.

Many people here have 'traditional' home brewing processes. They know how to make good beer with those processes. Maybe they will need to adapt to higher heating costs by boiling "less hard". Maybe they will use insulated kettles. Maybe they will boil 30 minutes (rather than 60).

There's a similar topic with regard to dry yeast being expensive. Can one make a starter (convert it to a liquid yeast) to reduce costs (when labor is free)? For numerous dry yeast strains, the answer is yes and some home brewers apparently have been doing this (making starters with dry yeast) for a long time. They don't talk about it much - as often it's better to "remain quiet" to "fit in with the herd".

FWIW, I boil at "level 1" and get beer that I enjoy.

 

[Brewdog80]

I used to brew in a keg system, and could only boil at just over a gentle boil in any weather cooler than a hot summer day. Never an issue, usually boiled off a half gallon..... Been using my foundry and I can easily get a gallon an hour, but have been turning it down just a bit to keep just a slow rolling boil. About .75 gal lost per hour.... did a 90 minute boil the other day and was 1 gallon gone. And there are folks who don't boil....

 

[jambop]

There is a body of knowledge that talks about adapting newly found knowledge ("diffusion of innovation").

Long story short, it can (and perhaps should) take years for a group (or society) to see the value (and safety) in a new approach. The proof of the new approach falls on the innovators and early adapters.

Many people here have 'traditional' home brewing processes. They know how to make good beer with those processes. Maybe they will need to adapt to higher heating costs by boiling "less hard". Maybe they will use insulated kettles. Maybe they will boil 30 minutes (rather than 60).

There's a similar topic with regard to dry yeast being expensive. Can one make a starter (convert it to a liquid yeast) to reduce costs (when labor is free)? For numerous dry yeast strains, the answer is yes and some home brewers apparently have been doing this (making starters with dry yeast) for a long time. They don't talk about it much - as often it's better to "remain quiet" to "fit in with the herd".

FWIW, I boil at "level 1" and get beer that I enjoy.

This my sound like a lot of guff but at a time when the environment is, or appears to be, out of control and energy prices are rocketing I think a combination of those two could become a driving force for a but of change of thinking. I know I am repeating but how long can commercial brewers hold their prices ? By the way I am not really an environmentalist as such but when you see things that are happening it makes you think a little.

 

[soccerdad]

I struggle with that energy cost idea as well. I know that brewing indoors with natural gas beats brewing outdoors with propane, for both cost and fuel waste. And then folks tell me electric brewing will be cheaper. But my biggest utility cost is the power that runs the blower motor .. kills me with AC in the summer and forced heated air in the winter. And down here the power plants run on coal which fills coal ash ponds which poisons the brewing water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@jambop : there are a number of people here who can help with the discussion on home brewing more efficiently / effectively. Even in the best of times, doing more with less can be a good thing.

The broader issues appear to be more appropriate for either a different sub-forum of HomeBrewTalk or a different forum.

 

[DBhomebrew]

FWIW, I boil at "level 1" and get beer that I enjoy.

Hmm, maybe I should turn my burner down!

 

[eric19312]

This is interesting thread. Nothing wrong with looking for ways to save energy especially considering local energy costs may be vastly different from location to location. OP's comments got me to look up what is going on with energy prices in Europe and pretty sure we would have rioting in the streets if same was happening here.

In fairness, boiling is only one component of total energy costs used to make beer. I saw an article putting total brewhouse energy consumption at about 30% of the energy used when you include chilling, packaging, lighting/heating/cooling brewery, refrigeration and distribution in the equation. Of brewhouse some energy is used in mashing but yes most in the boil. Of the energy used in the boil there is certain amount required to get the wort from room temp or mash temp to boiling temp and then some to actually evaporate water so the energy savings opportunity with reduced boil-off is going to be be a fraction of that total.

Nothing wrong with looking ways to reduce energy you are personally using to brew your beer. Check out the thread here on no boil NEIPA for one example, another could be warm fermented lagers. Extract brewers for sure don't need to boil much at all (of course they are just using product that was boiled somewhere else). No chill is another technique that could come in to play and perhaps bump up your serving temperatures (especially if you are kegging).

Other brewers are all about water efficiency. Especially folks living in places where water is a scarce resource such as Australia and California. No chill again. Or using electricity produced ice to chill instead of tap water. Recovering chilling water for use in cleaning and recovering grey water for watering gardens.

It's a hobby and we all have angles that make it enjoyable for us. Me personally I just don't see a blip in my energy consumption when I'm brewing a lot vs when I'm not brewing so much. I use natural gas which in US remains pretty cheap. I'd probably consider switching to electricity if cost of NG went very high for a long time because I enjoy the gear side of brewing a lot. Pretty sure it would take years of brewing to recover the cost of that switch but it would be fun to build.

 

[InspectorJon]

When I started brewing I read that “boil hard” was good brewing practice. I had to boil pretty hard with lots of rolling and foaming to get rid of the 1 gallon per hour I had my system set at in the brewing calculator so that I could hit the right Post boil gravity.

I read that thread mentioned above in post 22 last year and dialed things back to .75 gallons per hour and am happy with the results. I use a bit more grain to end up at the right post boil gravity. I use quite a bit less propane. I think I could adjust my calculations down to .6 gallons per hour and still be good to go and use a bit less propane.

To be honest, I can’t really tell any difference in the finished beer but I’m one of those guys that rarely repeats the same recipe. It’s more like variations on a theme is my practice. A lower boil off rate has become one of the variables I’m pretty happy with.

For what it is worth in the BIAB kettle size discussion, I have a 30 quart pot. 11.5 lbs of grain and 5.75 gallons of water at mash temperature left me half an inch of head space to spare last batch. Pre-boil gravity was 1.056. I have to do a double mash or good size batch sparge to get more than a few gallons of imperial gravity wort using a pot that size.

 

[jambop]

This is interesting thread. Nothing wrong with looking for ways to save energy especially considering local energy costs may be vastly different from location to location. OP's comments got me to look up what is going on with energy prices in Europe and pretty sure we would have rioting in the streets if same was happening here.

In fairness, boiling is only one component of total energy costs used to make beer. I saw an article putting total brewhouse energy consumption at about 30% of the energy used when you include chilling, packaging, lighting/heating/cooling brewery, refrigeration and distribution in the equation. Of brewhouse some energy is used in mashing but yes most in the boil. Of the energy used in the boil there is certain amount required to get the wort from room temp or mash temp to boiling temp and then some to actually evaporate water so the energy savings opportunity with reduced boil-off is going to be be a fraction of that total.

Nothing wrong with looking ways to reduce energy you are personally using to brew your beer. Check out the thread here on no boil NEIPA for one example, another could be warm fermented lagers. Extract brewers for sure don't need to boil much at all (of course they are just using product that was boiled somewhere else). No chill is another technique that could come in to play and perhaps bump up your serving temperatures (especially if you are kegging).

Other brewers are all about water efficiency. Especially folks living in places where water is a scarce resource such as Australia and California. No chill again. Or using electricity produced ice to chill instead of tap water. Recovering chilling water for use in cleaning and recovering grey water for watering gardens.

It's a hobby and we all have angles that make it enjoyable for us. Me personally I just don't see a blip in my energy consumption when I'm brewing a lot vs when I'm not brewing so much. I use natural gas which in US remains pretty cheap. I'd probably consider switching to electricity if cost of NG went very high for a long time because I enjoy the gear side of brewing a lot. Pretty sure it would take years of brewing to recover the cost of that switch but it would be fun to build.

I can understand your situation but as you have researched energy costs in Europe you will know where I am at. Energy usage and production are the talk of the day together with environmental issues we reach the trinity

 

[DBhomebrew]

What's a liter of gasoline/petrol going for these days?

 

[eric19312]

I can understand your situation but as you have researched energy costs in Europe you will know where I am at. Energy usage and production are the talk of the day together with environmental issues we reach the trinity

here's your answer then...move right through brewing into distilling

https://blog.nature.org/science/2016/12/21/green-booze-wine-beer-cocktail-energy-sustainable-water/

 

[jambop]

What's a liter of gasoline/petrol going for these days?

Here in France a litre of top test unleaded is 1.62€ and Diesel is 1.48€ but it is in flux .

 

[jambop]

here's your answer then...move right through brewing into distilling

https://blog.nature.org/science/2016/12/21/green-booze-wine-beer-cocktail-energy-sustainable-water/

There are some who do ! I tasted a drop of a local distillers pear schnapps and Mirabelle schnapps 45% abv honestly it was disgusting I would struggle to say "I enjoyed that" even if I was a jakey

 

[DBhomebrew]

Here in France a litre of top test unleaded is 1.62€ and Diesel is 1.48€ but it is in flux .

So, $6.97/gallon for premium unleaded.

 

[eric19312]

It's more the cost of electricity and natural gas that is through the roof. Something on order of 400% increase over last year.

 

[jambop]

So, $6.97/gallon for premium unleaded.

Possibly a bit higher I am getting $6.99 on my converter

 

[DBhomebrew]

Just looking to ballpark. Current Missouri average for premium is $3.47. Pointing out the reasons for the discrepancy may step into politics. Wouldn't want to do that.

 

[jambop]

It's more the cost of electricity and natural gas that is through the roof. Something on order of 400% increase over last year.

Some gas supply companies have gone bust because of the price of natural gas. The problem there is their customers have then to find a new gas price deal.... a wolf pack!
All my heating is done from natural carbon neutral resources... trees are hacked down and I help burn them I actually love wood as a heating energy but I am starting to experiment with lignite which is a great slow burner. One other wood product we are getting is compressed wood again a great product with a guaranteed amount of energy.

 

[jambop]

;

 

[jambop]

Just looking to ballpark. Current Missouri average for premium is $3.47. Pointing out the reasons for the discrepancy may step into politics. Wouldn't want to do that.


Of course but in honesty although the prices are historically high I can stand it I only cover about 4500m per year and my Honda CRV does about 55mp USG