has anyone tried freeze distilling?

[2141zach]

If so what did you do? What processes do you go through? I am curious to start my own experiment and just want to know where to get started.

 

[lumpher]

it's illegal in a lot of states, as it's considered distilling. i don't know about wa, but in tx, can't do it

 

[HopSong]

My dad did in his youth. Poured hard cider on the roof during the winter. When it started to thaw, he caught the first drippings. Sounded easy enough. This was back in the late 20's-early 30's.

Course, with modern refrigeration, you don't have to worry about waiting for the hard winters in Yakima.

We spent a few days there this summer before heading to Ellensburg for a woodcarving event. Went back and toured the Hop Museum at Toppenish and bought some fruit at the highway stands before heading east to Boise. Very nice area you live in..

Tried to get a tour through one of the hop places but had to make a reservation a couple days in advance.. too many people on vacation.

 

[2141zach]

oh... well I should probably check doesn't seem like it should be illegal

 

[2141zach]

My dad did in his youth. Poured hard cider on the roof during the winter. When it started to thaw, he caught the first drippings. Sounded easy enough. This was back in the late 20's-early 30's.

Course, with modern refrigeration, you don't have to worry about waiting for the hard winters in Yakima.

We spent a few days there this summer before heading to Ellensburg for a woodcarving event. Went back and toured the Hop Museum at Toppenish and bought some fruit at the highway stands before heading east to Boise. Very nice area you live in..

Tried to get a tour through one of the hop places but had to make a reservation a couple days in advance.. too many people on vacation.

Yep its just starting to get cold dropped to 25 last night,Yakima is pretty nice, there are a lot of hops around here, and apples... How did your dads applejack turn out?

 

[Shooter]

oh... well I should probably check doesn't seem like it should be illegal

I suppose freeze concentrating may have restrictions from one state to the next, but I don't believe it is illegal across-the-board, like distilling.

 

[HopSong]

How did your dads applejack turn out?

Don't know.. I wasn't born yet..

 

[Halbrust]

I suppose freeze concentrating may have restrictions from one state to the next, but I don't believe it is illegal across-the-board, like distilling.

The defintition of a still per ATF law.

Still. Any apparatus capable of being
used for separating alcoholic or spirituous
vapors, or spiritous solutions, or
spirits, from spirituous solutions or
mixtures, but shall not include stills
used for laboratory purposes or stills
used for distilling water or other nonalcoholic
materials where the cubic
distilling capacity is one gallon or less.

The red lettering is added by me to show why I believe freeze distilling is illegal.

 

[OG2620]

So, by that definition, a gallon jug of beer in the freezer is a still?

 

[Revvy]

It's NOT illegal, and it's NOT considered a form of Distillation. It's considered CONCENTRATION.This has been covered on here a ton.

James at basic brewing dispelled that myth that freeze distillation of beer is illegal at least FOUR years ago by actually calling the TTB and clearing it up. It's prefectly legal to do it. There's several threads on here with that information.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distillation-104882/

The Basic Brewing folks even demoed it here making a barleywine.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

The defintition of a still per ATF law.

Still. Any apparatus capable of being
used for separating alcoholic or spirituous
vapors, or spiritous solutions, or
spirits, from spirituous solutions or
mixtures, but shall not include stills
used for laboratory purposes or stills
used for distilling water or other nonalcoholic
materials where the cubic
distilling capacity is one gallon or less.

The red lettering is added by me to show why I believe freeze distilling is illegal.

Per your response, "Any apparatus CAPABLE...." By this restrictive wording, a refrigerator/freezer is illegal.

 

[OG2620]

Four years ago it was considered OK to transfer to a carboy for secondary "fermentation." Just sayin'. 😉

 

[Yuri_Rage]

It's a very gray area. Due mostly to James Spencer's findings, we allow the discussion here.

 

[scottab]

I've done some research and fractional distillation, freeze distillation, fractional concentration, is not illegal since it is not the same as distilling spirits... at least in NJ this is true though i can't attest to other state laws... i've done it with some hard cider i made last year to turn it into apple jack... basically i took a mason jar filled it 3/4 with the hard cider placed it into the freezer and every 30 minutes to 1 hour i shook it up till it was slush then poured the slush through a strainer to get the liquid. I haven't tried to calculate the alcohol content but i can say it's def much stronger.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Per your response, "Any apparatus CAPABLE...." By this restrictive wording, a refrigerator/freezer is illegal.

It's legal to own and operate a still. You're allowed to distill your own water. And I believe even to distill alcohol. Just not for consumption. IIRC you're allowed to distill alcohol as a fuel source.

My reading of the regulations says freeze concentration is illegal except for a very small amount, but I am not a lawyer and my reading is probably wrong. I tried to find the BBR episode where James got the official gov't word but haven't been able to, but if the official gov't word says it's legal, then it's legal. End of story.

 

[Revvy]

Four years ago it was considered OK to transfer to a carboy for secondary "fermentation." Just sayin'. 😉

The TTB, has a lot of other things to worry about than freeze concentration, I don't really think they'd make it illegal in the last 4 years. And I do believe we would have heard SOMETHING about it on here, or the many podcasts that often discuss alcohol laws and how it pertains to our hobby.....

 

[Subsailor]

Pretty sure it illegal in the US per ATF Title 27 Chapter 1 Subchapter A Part 29 SubpartC – Stills § 29.45 which Halbrust partially quoted above.
The line that nails it is the "condensing of a beverage to increase it's potential".

That said, we are hitting single digits at night and its amazing some of the things you can here to pass the time.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

It's legal to own and operate a still. You're allowed to distill your own water. And I believe even to distill alcohol. Just not for consumption. IIRC you're allowed to distill alcohol as a fuel source.

My reading of the regulations says freeze concentration is illegal except for a very small amount, but I am not a lawyer and my reading is probably wrong. I tried to find the BBR episode where James got the official gov't word but haven't been able to, but if the official gov't word says it's legal, then it's legal. End of story.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think you can own a still of any sort without a permit. To distill ethanol for fuel I know you have to have a fuel permit.

 

[lumpher]

either way, the chance of getting your door kicked in and your freezer torn open by the brew police is next to nil. i've made eisbock in the past, as well as turning wine into brandy. last year, i left a keg with a schwarzbier outside in the coldest part of the winter. about a gallon of the water froze, and i was left with a strong, but smooth, schwarzbier

 

[freisste]

Here's what it comes down to (in my non-lawyer mind). The government could give a rat's @$$ what you do. You want to grow tobacco, have at it. You want to brew your own beer, great. You want I run a still, knock yourself out. You want to sell it for profit (or at all, for that matter), pay taxes and face the ATF. You need a license to sell it.

Personal consumption? How could the government possibly find out if you aren't a complete moron? Don't bring attention to yourself and you are pretty safe.

Just don't sell anything without a license.

 

[Revvy]

Even WAAAAYYYYYY Back in 1995 Zymurgy dispelled this myth that it is illegal for hombrewers to freeze concentrate beer. They oughta know since they've been the ones working to change the laws. This has been posted on several forums and even the old homebrewer's listserv.

I found a reference in the Winter 1995 issue of Zymurgy. It had an
article by Dennis Davison on Eisbock.

A sidebar in the article stated, "According to Bureauf of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms officials, the process of freezing beer and
removing ice is called concentrating. A brewer may not employ any
process of concentration that separates alcohol spirits from any
fermented beverage, and since ice is being removed from beer, this
concentration procedure is legal."

It's semantics....but I'm pretty sure the AHA would make sure anything they published that mentioned homebrewing laws would have been vetted before publication.

 

[Revvy]

And according to the TTB website, reducing by freezing is not illegal if it's done only to a certain volume, because the as opposed to distillation which leaves the final product different from what was distilled- i.e. distilling beer, or wine makes an entirely different product, "moonshine," or Brandy or whatever, the product is alcohol removed from whatever was used. But the TTB deems a freeze concentrated beer, still a beer.

The entire ruling on it is here. TTB Ruling 94-3

Pertinent quote.

...ATF has examined laboratory samples of ice beer. In all cases, ATF finds that the basic character of the beer is unchanged; i.e., the product continues to resemble beer after the removal of small amounts of ice crystals and its alcoholic content is not increased to a substantial degree. The ice beer examined does not resemble a concentrate made from beer which typically contains less than 50 percent of the volume of the beer used to produce it, and has a high alcoholic content. Extensive research has revealed that the regulations relating to beer concentrate were premised on a process which concentrated beer to between 3/4 and 1 /4 or less of its original volume. ATF believes that de minimis removals of beer volume were not considered when the beer concentrate regulations were promulgated. Thus, ATF concludes that beer made by the removal of small amounts of ice crystals is beer rather than a concentrate made from beer.

ATF has also examined statements of process for ice beers. Our examination has found that the volume removed as ice crystals does not exceed 0.5 percent of the volume of the beer entered into the process. ATF thus concludes that removal of up to 0.5 percent of the volume of beer through the removal of ice crystals is customary industry practice and results in a product which may be considered beer.

You armchair lawyers can keep speculating if you want. But I'm done....

 

[OG2620]

Does the ATF technically exist anymore?

 

[rgarry]

Go to homedistiller.org. Great site. It's not legal to own still for making drinking alcohol. You can get a permit to make etoh as a fuel. In general concentrating or distilling beer gives poor spirits.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think you can own a still of any sort without a permit. To distill ethanol for fuel I know you have to have a fuel permit.

From TTB:

S3: I've seen ads for home distilling equipment in catalogs ("turn wine into brandy," "make your own essential oils"). Is it legal to buy and use a still like that?

Under Federal rules administered by TTB, it depends on how you use the still. You may not produce alcohol with these stills unless you qualify as a distilled spirits plant (see earlier question). However, owning a small still and using it for other purposes is allowed. You should also check with your State and local authorities - their rules may differ.

But you're right- you can produce ethanol fuel, but you need a permit to do it (but it's not taxed).

So I stand partially corrected.

 

[freisste]

Thanks, Revvy. (Go Tigers)

The wording you have provided doesn't make it seem like it is possible to do anything useful via freeze concentrating. If all you are allowed to do is remove 1% of the volume via ice crystals, you can't increase ABV by more than about 0.075. Not worth the time, if you ask me.

Or maybe I am misreading what you have posted. But it makes it sound like removing 0.5% is legal while removing 0.6% is illegal.

 

[Revvy]

Does the ATF technically exist anymore?

Yeah, but they don't deal anymore with the the legal requirements for licensing of brewing estabslishments and homebrewing any more.

After 9-11 that was spun off to the TTB.....and The ATF is now like the "military wing" of the Treasury Department. There primary job is to enforce TAXATION laws for controlled items. So in the world of politics, the difference between the ATF and TTB is largely semantics. One handles the "front end", and the other handles the "back end".

They care about illegal firearms, and tobacco products, and untaxed alcohol. But the TTB deals with brewery permits, homebrewing laws, stuff like that.

But a lot of their statutes are under the atf.....like evidently this one.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Revvy, you keep referencing laws at the federal level. Federally, homebrewing is legal. Now on the state level.......

 

[OG2620]

Back to the question posed by the OP. I filled up a sanitized milk jug with an Imperial Black Ale aged with oak chips soaked in Jack Daniels and put it in the freezer. About 24 hours later, I poured the contents into a growler and then proceeded to bottle it. This was in February and I haven't tried the results yet.

 

[OG2620]

I should add that I omitted the frozen water chunks during the transfer.