Harsh, bitter finish to my sample

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Ctoph6

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Hello all,

In the process of fermenting my second batch of beer - which is a double IPA extract that used some specialty grains pre-boil. My wife and I did a hydrometer reading and tasted a sample yesterday (been fermenting 3 weeks now), and the beer has a sharp/harsh bitter finish to it. I love IPA's and bitter beers, but this finish isn't a hoppy flavor, just vey bitter and feels dry, and really lingers on your tongue. Also, the beer was very hazy/cloudy. I'll admit, I forgot to filter the beer when I moved it from the boil pot to the fermenter (not sure if this is an issue or not), however, I did move it to a secondary fermenter about a weekago hoping it would provide some clarity, which I think it did but clearly still very hazy.

I wanted to ask what issues could have caused this astringent/bitter off-flavor? From my initial searching, I'm thinking it was an excess of tannins that occurred when I steeped the specialty grains, because I didn't realize that using the full 5 gallons of water when steeping the specialty grains can cause the PH to drive above 6, which from what I've come to understand can lead to excessive tannins in the wort. But would this alone have made the beer so bitter and dry, or maybe something with the tannins in the hops?

Also, is there anything I can do now to balance out the tannins/bitterness? I was planning on bottling on Sunday if my next hydrometer reading shows the same SG (1.020) that was read yesterday, but hoping there is something I can do to help balance the harsh bitter finish.

Thanks all!
Chris
 
Recipe? Brew day notes?

What was your source water?

What was your steeping process?

eta: with an 'extract' DIPA recipe, row 143 of the "0. Instructions" tab in BrunWater125.xlsx (free download) may be a consideration. edit: at OG 75 (see #6), this probably isn't a factor. DIPAs are often in the OG 90 range.
 
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This may or may not help you, but FWIW I am just absolutely terrible at tasting green beer. They always seem just horrible. My IPAs always have the sharp bitterness you're describing. Less hoppy brews as well sometimes. So then I spend the next two or three weeks worrying about whether I just brewed my first dumper*, but (so far) they always taste just fine once they're carbed up and aged a bit.

*I don't think I'd ever actually dump a beer, but a 5 gallon batch is a whole helluva lot of brats.
 
I had a very similar sounding harshness to a pale ale I brewed last year. It was the only beer I had with that type of harshness at the end, and I chalked it up to hop burn/hop creep. Checking my notes, for whatever reason I let that beer sit on the dry hops for about 18 days. It never faded completely, but it never got worse. It was also quite cloudy.
It's also possible that theres still suspended yeast, but that seems unlikely if its been in the fermenter for that long. If it would turn out to be the yeast in suspension, I would think that would fade out in time.
 
Recipe? Brew day notes?

What was your source water?

What was your steeping process?

eta: with an 'extract' DIPA recipe, row 143 of the "0. Instructions" tab in BrunWater125.xlsx (free download) may be a consideration.
Recipe was 9.9 LBS Light LME, 1 LB corn sugar, 80z caramel 30L, 4oz Carapils, 3 Packs of 1 oz Chinook hops, 1 0z pack of Columbus hops, 1 oz pack of Cascade hops

Brew day notes:
  • Put 6 gallons of Spring water into boil pot, heated water until 165 F and began to steep the caramel and carapils specialty grains
  • Steeped grains between 165 - 170 F for 22 minutes, then removed specialty grains
  • Brought wort to boil, then added LME's and corn sugar
  • Hop additions:
    • 60 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 45 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 30 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 25 minutes: 10z Columbus hops
    • 15 minutes: 10z cascade hops
  • @15 minutes I put my wort chiller in the pot, @10 mins used a yeast nutrient, then after terminating my boil, started cooling
  • Wort chiller brought temperature down to 70 F in 25 mins, during this time I started a yeast starter
  • Siphoned to fermenter (forgot to filter, but my auto siphon has a filter mechanism built in I think
  • added yeast starter

OG was 1.075
SG now is 1.20

Water I used was spring water

After 3 weeks I moved to a secondary fermentor, but my auto siphon wasn't big enough to get all the way to the bottom, so I tried to carefully pour about another gallon into the secondary through a filter (probably oxygenized way more than I should, and still lost about 3 liters of beer)

However, I have to say, I took another hydrometer reading on Sunday and it looked more clear and had less of the harsh bitter finish than it did a week ago
 
Hop additions:
  • 60 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
  • 45 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
  • 30 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
  • 25 minutes: 10z Columbus hops
  • 15 minutes: 10z cascade hops
Even for a DIPA, that’s a lot bitting hops. Additionally, there are no late boil, flameout, whirlpool or dry hops to contribute that big hop aroma and flavor.

I’d say you maxed out the flavor threshold of hop bitterness.

2-4 ounces of dry hops can shift the flavor perception a little and add some dimension so you’re not just smacked in the face with the hop frying pan.
 
I took another hydrometer reading on Sunday and it looked more clear and had less of the harsh bitter finish than it did a week ago
The harshness in the earlier sample was likely due to yeast or hop trub that had not yet settled out.

eta: beyond that, it's not clear to me what era/style of DIPA the (kit?) recipe and process was trying to make. :mug:
 
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Recipe was 9.9 LBS Light LME, 1 LB corn sugar, 80z caramel 30L, 4oz Carapils, 3 Packs of 1 oz Chinook hops, 1 0z pack of Columbus hops, 1 oz pack of Cascade hops

Brew day notes:
  • Put 6 gallons of Spring water into boil pot, heated water until 165 F and began to steep the caramel and carapils specialty grains
  • Steeped grains between 165 - 170 F for 22 minutes, then removed specialty grains
  • Brought wort to boil, then added LME's and corn sugar
  • Hop additions:
    • 60 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 45 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 30 minutes: 1 oz Chinook hops
    • 25 minutes: 10z Columbus hops
    • 15 minutes: 10z cascade hops
  • @15 minutes I put my wort chiller in the pot, @10 mins used a yeast nutrient, then after terminating my boil, started cooling
  • Wort chiller brought temperature down to 70 F in 25 mins, during this time I started a yeast starter
  • Siphoned to fermenter (forgot to filter, but my auto siphon has a filter mechanism built in I think
  • added yeast starter

OG was 1.075
SG now is 1.20

Water I used was spring water

After 3 weeks I moved to a secondary fermentor, but my auto siphon wasn't big enough to get all the way to the bottom, so I tried to carefully pour about another gallon into the secondary through a filter (probably oxygenized way more than I should, and still lost about 3 liters of beer)

However, I have to say, I took another hydrometer reading on Sunday and it looked more clear and had less of the harsh bitter finish than it did a week ago
As mentioned above, that's a lot of bittering hops and yields an estimated (Tinseth) IBU of well over 100.

Also, I've heard numerous anecdotal reports of Chinook yielding a "harsher" bitterness than many other hop varieties when used early in the boil.
 
I had a very similar sounding harshness to a pale ale I brewed last year. It was the only beer I had with that type of harshness at the end, and I chalked it up to hop burn/hop creep. Checking my notes, for whatever reason I let that beer sit on the dry hops for about 18 days. It never faded completely, but it never got worse. It was also quite cloudy.
It's also possible that theres still suspended yeast, but that seems unlikely if its been in the fermenter for that long. If it would turn out to be the yeast in suspension, I would think that would fade out in time.
You know...I think I took the sample 4 days after racking to a secondary fermenter, so the yeast and some trub could have been floating around and hadn't yet settled down again after being moved, which might make sense as to why it tasted less bitter when I took another sample a few days later. Someone else also mentioned it could have been due to the yeast/trub still in suspension
 
The harshness in the earlier sample was likely due to yeast or hop trub that had not yet settled out.

eta: beyond that, it's not clear to me what era/style of DIPA the (kit?) recipe and process was trying to make. :mug:
Yes I'm glad you mentioned that, because I just realized I had taken that sample 4 days after moving to secondary, so the yeast and trub moved over might have still been in suspension
 
Even for a DIPA, that’s a lot bitting hops. Additionally, there are no late boil, flameout, whirlpool or dry hops to contribute that big hop aroma and flavor.

I’d say you maxed out the flavor threshold of hop bitterness.

2-4 ounces of dry hops can shift the flavor perception a little and add some dimension so you’re not just smacked in the face with the hop frying pan.
Thanks for the suggestion (yes I just followed the kit recipe blindly, but looking back it certainly is alot of bittering hops). I'll take another sample before bottling to see how the balance is and if a correction is needed, but how long would you dry-hop in the secondary fermenter, a week or two?
 
Thanks for the suggestion (yes I just followed the kit recipe blindly, but looking back it certainly is alot of bittering hops). I'll take another sample before bottling to see how the balance is and if a correction is needed, but how long would you dry-hop in the secondary fermenter, a week or two?
I would stop transferring to secondary, especially on hoppy beers as this can easily oxidise them and kill hop character. I wouldn't dry hop much longer than 1-3 days before packaging. Two weeks is very long and can supposedly lead to grassy flavours (did it twice, but didn't notice anything) and dry hop creep. It might also actually strip hop character out of your beer due to reabsorption of flavour compounds back into the hops.
 
That's a lot of Chinooks! What was the alpha acid on the Chinooks and the other hops? I used the suggested values in Beersmith and a 5.5 gallon batch into the fermenter and the IBUs were 135.5 with a suggested range for Double IPA of 60-120. I overbittered once with Chinooks.

As far as tasting the sample, I do often taste some extra bitterness in the sample that will often not be present once the beer is conditioned/aged. For that situation, it seems to me to be very fine hop particulates. It even happens at bottling/kegging time. (I don't do in between sampling. I have mostly carboys and I can see when things are finished and I don't want to open them repeatedly.) Having said that, I very much agree with the other posters that it's the bittering hops! It's going to continue to be bitter. Take it from me, if you can soldier through it, after about the third or fourth beer your tongue will be numb and it may be passable. Don't sweat it though, mistakes happen.
 
I recently pulled a sample of a doppelbock (big malty beer, lower IBU) and it had a sharp wet cardboardy taste from yeast and probably a little carbonic acid from fermentation. Once lagered, kegged and resting it all settled out and it's amazing. 99% of the time, Charlie was right. RDWHAHB
 
Add a couple drops of lactic acid or phosphoric acid to the sample and see if it improves
I had never heard of this before. Kegged a Anchor Liberty clone today and almost tossed it. I will give it some time ONLY because of your suggestion here. I did a couple drops of lactic (incidentally, I completely forgot to use it in my mash) in the sample and was blown away by how it changed. I ended up putting 1ml in the 5 gallons along with ascorbic (1 tsp) to see what it becomes. Thanks for sharing this!
 
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