"Green" is Ugly!

[bob1852]

My biggest issue with wind power is that they need to build additional natural gas electrical generating stations as backups since no Utility can provide consistent electricity to the market solely through the wind farms.

So, in order to be "green" they not only destroy the land and wildlife with wind farms, but then build additional fossil fuel generating stations often requiring new gas wells.

 

[brewingmeister]

I googled some videos, and most of the comments are "awesome", "relaxing", "beautiful". The night videos give an idea of the sight, but I bet it's much more dramatic in real life.

I wouldn't use any of those words to describe them. More like distracting and annoying.

 

[mb82]

Wind definitely has some serious issues. The bird/bat issue is real. Both animals while migrating at night follow the light at the top of the wind turbine and circle it till they fall out of the sky dead( this is true of any high object with a light on it). Living where I do a study showed that 1-4% of turbines will be taken out per category of hurricane. Not exactly good odds for something that you want to last for long periods of time.
I think wind works better in small scale. So say a vertical turbine on the roof of every house helping to reduce the amount of energy the house needs.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Just realized I think the wind generators in that picture are trying to spell out YMCA.

They would have YMCA perfectly spelled out, but all of the rare birds that the blades are slicing up really noticeably slow down the rotation, throwing them out of sync.

pretty cool!

 

[onthekeg]

My biggest issue with wind power is that they need to build additional natural gas electrical generating stations as backups since no Utility can provide consistent electricity to the market solely through the wind farms.

So, in order to be "green" they not only destroy the land and wildlife with wind farms, but then build additional fossil fuel generating stations often requiring new gas wells.

The windmills are allowing the current generation capacity to maintain without building large new plants in our area. They are still available for backup during peak demand, but they will run at lower capacity when the windfarm is able to generate the demand.
Essentially the existing plants are used for evening out the peak needs rather than the "backbone" of the generation.
There is a 134 tower turbine farm nearby, and there are days when the wind is blowing that they have them shut off since the demand isn't there.
http://www.xcelenergy.com/Environment/Renewable_Energy/Wind/Nobles_Wind_Farm

 

[onthekeg]

There is also this chart out there. I agree, I don't have any bald eagles flying into my large door going to my deck, but at least once a week I hear a clunk and a bird is getting his bearings lying there.


Man-made structure/technology

Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats

Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]

Power lines

130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]

Windows (residential and commercial)

100 million -- 1 billion [source: TreeHugger]

Pesticides

70 million [source: AWEA]

Automobiles

60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]

Lighted communication towers

40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]

Wind turbines

10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]

 

[mbauer013]

The concept has never been to eliminate the dependancy (although crude based lubricrants are not the only game in town) but to, as much as humanly possible, relegate it's usefulness to industry alone so that the crash may be somewhat tempered rather than catastrophic.

No matter what the crash will be catastrophic, everything we buy or use on a daily basis depends upon oil in some form, chasing the technology genie in this case is almost useless, the only real answer is to start to live and interact locally, local jobs and food to start, build up the local economy to beable to support itself and then you will be able to make a go of it. Transitions.org has some good ideas, and this comes from me who is probably the most anti-hippie you'll ever meet.

At some point the energy glut we have now will decrease, The non oil based world of the 1800's saw steady global populations in the 1 billion range and this is where we will go again when oil is no longer there at a reasonable price. Its a fun ride but some time it will be over.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

No matter what the crash will be catastrophic, everything we buy or use on a daily basis depends upon oil in some form, chasing the technology genie in this case is almost useless, the only real answer is to start to live and interact locally, local jobs and food to start, build up the local economy to beable to support itself and then you will be able to make a go of it. Transitions.org has some good ideas, and this comes from me who is probably the most anti-hippie you'll ever meet.

At some point the energy glut we have now will decrease, The non oil based world of the 1800's saw steady global populations in the 1 billion range and this is where we will go again when oil is no longer there at a reasonable price. Its a fun ride but some time it will be over.

To say catastrophic, I think, is a stretch. There are plant based alternatives to crude for lubricants, and fuels so industry will not come to a halt because their machines sieze up. Are these alternatives economically preferred? No, but they exist.

Plastics are about the only thing that would die off without crude. And, frankly, this world will still spin without them.

 

[TyTanium]

To say catastrophic, I think, is a stretch. There are plant based alternatives to crude for lubricants, and fuels so industry will not come to a halt because their machines sieze up. Are these alternatives economically preferred? No, but they exist.

But you've never dry-hopped, so how would you know?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

But you've never dry-hopped, so how would you know?

bwahahahahahaha.

 

[Punity]

Those people have never lived in Palm springs. Kinda pretty to watch the hundreds of turbines humming along.

People will always find a reason to complain.

 

[arturo7]

Plastics are about the only thing that would die off without crude. And, frankly, this world will still spin without them.

Perhaps, but very, very slowly. Say goodbye to high mileage cars, air travel, computers and all electronics, all medical devices, food packing, etc. etc. The only thing you touch more than plastic is your own skin.

 

[thepartsmancometh]

There are several large wind farms in my immediate vicinity, and I don't think they cause any issues. Some old people shook their canes at them initially, but I haven't heard any real complaints now that they are established. They are sorta cool looking too

 

[CreamyGoodness]

First of all, whomever asked if Sharona was me... well you made me laugh audibly. Nicely done.

Secondly, to those good folks who lament the wind turbines because they are ugly, well... fornicate with a fruit basket. I always like to have a well-worded scientific argument to present.

Thirdly, full disclosure, my father-in-law is a retired lubricants salesman (no, not those... NO I cant get you a discount... geez) and my sister-in-law got a solar start-up off the ground. I have just a touch of anecdotal and working knowledge of traditional and alternative energy sources. To respectfully disagree with those who claim that "green" is a misnomer... I would counter that, unfortunately, people on both sides of the energy aisle have overused the term so much that it has lost its original meaning. "Green" originally meant "sustainable," and "producing less emissions than its fossil fuel counterparts." If every turbine in America and abroad required the ritual sacrifice of a virgin during the new moon and required a lubricant made of dead baby seal heads to function... well... they would still be "green" under the original definition.

I really do think we should avoid killing bats and golden eagles though... so turbines 2.0 should take that into account.

 

[SharonaZamboni]

First of all, whomever asked if Sharona was me... well you made me laugh audibly. Nicely done.

I was flattered

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I was flattered

 

[CBXBob]

Most of the "green" I see is "Green washing". The adds from the oil, gas, and coal industries telling us how good they are for us, the jobs they provide, and how they are "powering America". Any company or industry that spends millions to tell us how good they are, makes me suspect they are not. And when I hear we need to expand domestic oil production to end our dependence on foreign oil, I laugh. It's a world market, we pay the going price no matter where it's produced. The only reason we are dependent on foreign oil is because the oil companies make more money keeping it that way. If the oil companies could only sell domestic oil domestically our dependence on foreign oil would end. I'm not a communist, or a socialist, but if the government nationalized the domestic oil market as a matter of National Security I would consider it a patriotic act. But I will settle for ending government subsidies for an industry the is the most profitable on the planet.
End of rant

 

[cheezydemon3]

I have heard that all of the chopped up birds at the base of windmills can be scooped up and used as fertilizer for hops.

 

[DPBISME]

... we pay the going price no matter where it's produced...

Yep....

I mean the people that want us to stop using fossil fuel are clueless. The don't understand that ENTIRE economy is based on inexpensive energy.

That and the fact we are a Service Based Economy

Take these two items into account and you see why a hike in fuel prices effects us so.

People have to spend more of their disposiable income on energy and they have less to spend on Services... The People who work the Service Industry make less money, and a very bad "trickle down economic" thing happens...

I am not a fan of Nationalizing anything because as soon as you do Politics effect all the decision making processes... and this is never good for the taxpayer... Layers of bureaucracy, money being funneled to favored people, businesses, or instatutions… and the like. All which will reduce efficiency...

 

[jtrainer]

I recently saw an article that said each turbine, the parts and components to manufacture them takes more energy (melting / forming of metal parts, design, in addition to the chemical portions to make up the non-metalic components actually take more heat n energy than the turbine will produce in it's lifetime. If that article was anywhere near accurate, it's a losing situation.

he article wen t on to discuss newer approaches to wind turbines that to date have never interfered with birds or bats... Also the newer designs fit on roof tops nestled between the AC units. Were talking 1.5 MW on a roof top.

While I don't think much of wind turbines, and solare isn't ready for prime time IMO we do need to work our way off of fossil fuels so lets NUKE it up...