Gravity Chillers with larger wort volume?

[Antti]

Hi all.

I've done brewing only biab, and plan to do so everytime .
Usually only max 19L batches on a regular large kettle on a stovetop (wood fired stove).

Now I'm about to buy a larger kettle to get 25L of wort or maybe upto 50L of wort (35 - 80L kettle).
The kettle would have an ball valve close to the bottom so that I don't have to move it when full.

I hate all the pumps and widgets and I was thinking to use plate-heat-exchangers without a pump for the wort (gravity flow to fermenter). Pressurized water from the tap is around 4-6°C

How much is the clogging a problem? Any tips?
Can I cool the wort to the pitching temperature without recirculating the wort (no need for pump)?
Any recommendations for the new kettle and wort chiller?

Thanks all

 

[Whisky River]

I have no experience with plate chillers because of the clogging and cleaning issues but I do know that people have been successfully using gravity fed counterflow chillers to single pass chill for many years. Are you set on using a plate chiller?

 

[sibelman]

Re tap water temperature: many use evil pump gadgets to recirculate ice water through the cooling loop, while gravity moves the wort from kettle to fermenter. Your tap water is probably cold enough as it is, though many find their tap water too warm in summer months.

Re preventing clogging: whirlpooling can be manual (spoon instead of pump), and can gather most hops to the center of a kettle with a side pickup. a perforated false bottom in the kettle can filter out hops.

fwiw, I use a gravity fed counterflow chiller, having heard that plate chillers are more subject to clogging, and have some cleaning challenges. But cleaning my counterflow chiller definitely relies on my pump, recirculating hot alkaline cleaning solution.

 

[IslandLizard]

How much is the clogging a problem? Any tips?

With homebrew type/size plate chillers, clogging needs to be avoided like the plague. On those relatively small homebrew chillers, the channels between the plates are very narrow and "convoluted" (ridges and such, not smooth) and bound to clog when sending hop pulp and such through.

So, you'll need to either bag your hops (that's what I usually do) or use one of those stainless mesh strainer baskets. Even Irish moss flakes could clog up your chiller. So does fruit pulp...

When your tap water is very cold, 4-6°C, you can certainly chill in a single pass, straight to the fermenter.
Just throttle/balance the flow of both the wort (kettle valve) and chilling water (faucet). Put a thermometer on the wort output as your guide. You don't want the wort to be too cold either.

Rule of thumb:
Larger (longer) plates will chill more efficiently.
Wider and more plates will chill faster.

I use a smallish 30-plate chiller, 19 x 7 x 7.5 cm (L x W x H) that works well for 5-10 gallon (19-38 liter) batches.
I got mine at DudaDiesel.com they have many types and sizes available.

You being in Finland, what kind of plate chillers are available to you?

 

[Antti]

With homebrew type/size plate chillers, clogging needs to be avoided like the plague. On those relatively small homebrew chillers, the channels between the plates are very narrow and "convoluted" (ridges and such, not smooth) and bound to clog when sending hop pulp and such through.

So, you'll need to either bag your hops (that's what I usually do) or use one of those stainless mesh strainer baskets. Even Irish moss flakes could clog up your chiller. So does fruit pulp...

When your tap water is very cold, 4-6°C, you can certainly chill in a single pass, straight to the fermenter.
Just throttle/balance the flow of both the wort (kettle valve) and chilling water (faucet). Put a thermometer on the wort output as your guide. You don't want the wort to be too cold either.

Rule of thumb:
Larger (longer) plates will chill more efficiently.
Wider and more plates will chill faster.

I use a smallish 30-plate chiller, 19 x 7 x 7.5 cm (L x W x H) that works well for 5-10 gallon (19-38 liter) batches.
I got mine at DudaDiesel.com they have many types and sizes available.

You being in Finland, what kind of plate chillers are available to you?

Thank you for the reply and good info

Here in Finland we do have good variety of plate-chillers, although they tend to be more industrial type. Also by price too...

So I might have to order online.

Counterflow (tubular) chillers might be good too. Those seem to take a lot of space and for my eyes earlier seemed to be not so good at cooling. But it surely is only about the balance of water-/wort-flow.

The tubular counterflow chillers might be better for cleaning the crud and such from the chiller...

People seem to be using some sorts of acids to clean these.
If it isn't too expensive, I could replace the pump by submersing the whole chiller in to the acid and then submerge it in water. Then dry with air compressor?

 

[mashdar]

But cleaning my counterflow chiller definitely relies on my pump, recirculating hot alkaline cleaning solution.

This is critical. You might get away with gravity to cool beer, but I can't think of a way to adequately clean any flow-through chiller without a pump.

 

[Indian_villager]

I'd be comfortable with a counterflow chiller using gravity. I have successfully done so for years before I started incorporating pumps into my setup. I'd be worried with a plate chiller with getting material stuck, and I really recommend some form of pumped recirculation for cleaning the counterflow exchangers.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I use a plate chiller with a pump. I'm not sure I would use gravity only with it, but I've never tried. I do manually whirlpool, 30 seconds with a spoon, then wait 20 minutes and it forms a nice cone of debris in the center of the kettle. Never clogged the chiller.

 

[sibelman]

This is critical. You might get away with gravity to cool beer, but I can't think of a way to adequately clean any flow-through chiller without a pump.

So, instead of a plate or counterflow chiller, an immersion chiller could work for you, @Antti, cooling the wort in your kettle. Wort doesn't flow through this kind of chiller, so cleaning does not require a pump; and gravity can transfer the chilled wort to your fermenter.

 

[Antti]

So, instead of a plate or counterflow chiller, an immersion chiller could work for you, @Antti, cooling the wort in your kettle. Wort doesn't flow through this kind of chiller, so cleaning does not require a pump; and gravity can transfer the chilled wort to your fermenter.

Yeah, I think you are correct.

This might be the best way forward.

But if I'm correct, there isn't any/many immersion chillers that can handle upto 80L of wort cooling in reasonable time?

I could buy thin copper-pipe and coil a larger one. Might be cheaper?

 

[sibelman]

80L of wort cooling

True, most home brewers are not working at this size. However, for example, NY Brew Supply claims that their large copper chiller (~15m of ~1.25cm diameter copper tubing, $140USD) will chill 75L of wort. Timing is not specified, but this is at least a starting point for sizing a self-built chiller.

You might also find inspiration at the site of Jaded, which makes fancier (and faster) immersion chillers.

 

[Deadalus]

My counterflow chiller (CFC) is only marginally slower than my plate chiller. It will chill using gravity. However, I clean in place (CIP) using a pump. I also use the pump as a final sanitizing step by pumping hit wort through it. This is done by recirculation just prior to cooling. A pump can also be used to whirlpool hops.

Whirlfloc instead of regular Irish moss works fine in a plate chiller. I never had a clogging issue with Whirfloc freely, hops needed to go in a hop sock or hop spider. I use a Hopstopper with my CFC using my pump on low and also gravity. However, I have two drain ports and I can whirlpool free floating hops through the drain port without the Hopstopper through my CFC. The inner tubing on my CFC has 1/2" soft copper tubing. That's a nominal US size. Many CFC's are wide coils but mine is the fat coiled compact type with narrow diameter coils but fairly larger pipe diameter.

A jaded hydra type immersion chiller would probably work fine for larger volumes as far as an immersion chiller. Also pumping ice water could be useful.

Why the hate for pumps? They are useful and appreciated tools. I have 9 in my brewhouse. Three in my glycol chiller, one in my "perpetual" chiller, two for keg washers, two on my brew rig, and one on my "pico" brewpot. Now the little bastard pump on my rainwater collection system, that one I do hate!

 

[Antti]

My counterflow chiller (CFC) is only marginally slower than my plate chiller. It will chill using gravity. However, I clean in place (CIP) using a pump. I also use the pump as a final sanitizing step by pumping hit wort through it. This is done by recirculation just prior to cooling. A pump can also be used to whirlpool hops.

Whirlfloc instead of regular Irish moss works fine in a plate chiller. I never had a clogging issue with Whirfloc freely, hops needed to go in a hop sock or hop spider. I use a Hopstopper with my CFC using my pump on low and also gravity. However, I have two drain ports and I can whirlpool free floating hops through the drain port without the Hopstopper through my CFC. The inner tubing on my CFC has 1/2" soft copper tubing. That's a nominal US size. Many CFC's are wide coils but mine is the fat coiled compact type with narrow diameter coils but fairly larger pipe diameter.

A jaded hydra type immersion chiller would probably work fine for larger volumes as far as an immersion chiller. Also pumping ice water could be useful.

Why the hate for pumps? They are useful and appreciated tools. I have 9 in my brewhouse. Three in my glycol chiller, one in my "perpetual" chiller, two for keg washers, two on my brew rig, and one on my "pico" brewpot. Now the little bastard pump on my rainwater collection system, that one I do hate!

I dislike almost every single tool that isn't absolutely needed to get something done. I try to keep everything hassle free.

I've cooled the 18L wort by carrying the kettle outside and placing the wort-kettle inside of a bigger water container and then adding cold water and waited.

Usually tools and gadgets do make things faster and/or easier. Like cordless power drill. But it all boils down to the scale of doing something.

I'm brewing around 4 times in a year, started with 5L batches, now with 18L wort volume. Next step is minimum of 25L of wort, most likely 50L to 75L. So I just simply can't carry the kettle outside anymore.

I do everything in the kitchen where the dining table is situated too. So with any kind of water flowing cooling, I need to pull hoses from the kitchen sink, in front of the doorway and everything comes that more messy and cumbersome. If we add pumps, possible transformers and their wiring plus their hoses, I'm afraid that it all is just very expensive mess.

Also I've experienced that every tool that you rely in your doing is going to fail when they should not. They also make the price of brewing go up.

But the bigger wort volume does need something to cool it with. So if I somehow manage to create a layout that is easier, tidier and faster I might think of a pump.

My main take is that for brewing, you need only water, barley and yeast, way to measure temperature. Kettle and fermenter with airlock. Nothing else.

Most things that people buy are bought because of the emotions that people like to feel when they've been able to get something new and "absolutely necessary".
Not to say that pumps are that, just a general observation from everyday life.

 

[sibelman]

I respect your love of simplicity, @Antti. Gotta have hops though. And I love my pump.

I would not be able to boil 80L in my kitchen!

 

[Deadalus]

I understand your viewpoint, we do sometimes overcomplicate things. I have been known to bling things out as well.

So of the pumps I mentioned 5 are Vivosun 800 gpm and I don't think they cost me more than $20 each. I use those in both chillers I mentioned and for one keg washer. The other keg washer I got used for real cheap, it's an SS Brewtech and I don't know it's pump cost. I don't think I have had a Vivosun fail yet, the keg washer one is about 6 years old. These are all immersion style. They would be ideal for using an IC with ice in a bucket. IC and pump could be stored in the bucket.

My other pumps are a March, Spike, and Blichmann mag pumps. In my opinion, these work best mounted, either to a brew rig or a portable stand. Originally, I had the March pump, it came from a package buy of used brewing equipment. I didn't use it at first and even when I did it was awkward. But then I switched to electric, built a brewstand, and mounted it. As I scaled up it became more and more useful. I consider it essential for CIP of HERMS coil, CFCs, and plate chillers.

I also scored a bunch of SS fittings and nipples cheap so I built an overly fancy SS stand for my March pump and PID controller since I still had it. But a cheap portable stand can be constructed of other materials.

OK I forgot, I have one more pump in storage. Its a Vevor, like those mid-price Kegland MKs. It was crazy on sale, like $25. It's a spare. (Yes I am an equipment whore. I can stop anytime LOL.)

 

[mac_1103]

Pressurized water from the tap is around 4-6°C

That's really cold water. I think you would do quite well with a large immersion chiller.

 

[Antti]

I respect your love of simplicity, @Antti. Gotta have hops though. And I love my pump.

I would not be able to boil 80L in my kitchen!

Yeah hops too

This is my stovetop, wood fired, plenty of power and space. But situated in the wrong place logistically for brewing with plenty of gadgets.

 

[Deadalus]

Aw shoot I missed that you were using a wood cooking stove. I've always wanted one. That one looks somewhat compact.

50l is going to be really heavy lifting to note. I'd probably hurt myself these days, but I have done it. I'm not sure about the grain bag weight for that size but I think also heavy. But maybe a hoist right there would solve both. You'd be wanting to get the vessel off the stove with an IC, as the stove will continue to be hot right?

There is a CFC that comes apart. Reminds me of a trombone without the bell. If you can solder, you could probably make that one yourself.

 

[Deadalus]

This one, also from Jaded.
https://jadedbrewing.com/products/cyclone.

 

[sibelman]

get the vessel off the stove with an IC, as the stove will continue to be hot

I hadn't thought about that. That's an obstacle for sure.

 

[Deadalus]

I hadn't thought about that. That's an obstacle for sure.

Lowering it to the floor might not be too bad? Could maybe slide it over onto a temporary stand? My propane 2 burner stand was two levels and not meant for brewing. I had to lift the BK up from the ground after gravity draining the MT and it's a keggle.

 

[Antti]

Lowering it to the floor might not be too bad? Could maybe slide it over onto a temporary stand? My propane 2 burner stand was two levels and not meant for brewing. I had to lift the BK up from the ground after gravity draining the MT and it's a keggle.

Yeah sliding to a stand with some kind of wheels is my current plan.
And probably making the immersion chiller myself from copper.

We have 25meter (82feet) long rolls sold here in Finland.
I just have to think the correct diameter.
The smallest one is 6mm (1/4"), then there's 8mm, 10mm and 12mm (1/2").
This is soft copper but still the smaller diameter ones will be the most flexible.

 

[IslandLizard]

We have 25meter (82feet) long rolls sold here in Finland.
I just have to think the correct diameter.
The smallest one is 6mm (1/4"), then there's 8mm, 10mm and 12mm (1/2").
This is soft copper but still the smaller diameter ones will be the most flexible.

6 and 8 mm are definitely too thin of a bore for 20-40 liter batches. If you're aiming for 40-80 liter batches in the near future I'd go 1/2" (12 mm) ID. A double coil such as the Jaded Hydra can work to your advantage.

When constructing one, keep your kettle diameter and fill height (wort level) in mind.

One word of caution in regards to storage of coiled (copper) chillers. They must be stored in areas that remain well above freezing point, or they will bust when temps drop below 0°C. This is because it's almost impossible to drain or blow them out fully.

If it so happens you can repair the coil, though.

 

[Broken Crow]

6 and 8 mm are definitely too thin of a bore for 20-40 liter batches. If you're aiming for 40-80 liter batches in the near future I'd go 1/2" ID. A double coil such as the Jaded Hydra can work to your advantage.

When constructing one, keep your kettle diameter and fill height (wort level) in mind.

One word of caution in regards to storage of coiled (copper) chillers. They must be stored in areas that remain well above freezing point, or they will bust when temps drop below 0°C. This is because it's almost impossible to drain or blow them out fully.

If it so happens you can repair the coil, though.

I 'sort of' disagree with that part, because I totally agree with the next: 'Double Coil' I always look to surface area in any heat exchanger. Circumference of 12mm is about 37.7mm and 8mm is about 25.1mm... I'd go with at least a pair of parallel 8mm to get 50.2mm surface/length submergable.

 

[IslandLizard]

I 'sort of' disagree with that part, because I totally agree with the next: 'Double Coil' I always look to surface area in any heat exchanger. Circumference of 12mm is about 37.7mm and 8mm is about 25.1mm... I'd go with at least a pair of parallel 8mm to get 50.2mm surface/length submergable.

I mentioned that because of the reduced heat transfer between the inside and outside of the tubing. This is due to differences in surface areas on the inside of the tube vs. the outside. This is more pronounced at smaller tube diameters.

IOW, smaller tube diameters have a relatively much smaller surface area on the inside than on the outside compared to larger diameter tubing, at the same thickness of the material (copper).

For example, for a tap water pre-chiller I've used a 3/8" (9.5 mm) OD coil placed in a bucket with ice water before it reaches the plate chiller. Although it helps somewhat, I need to squelch the tap water flow drastically to get it to chill in the bucket. So it's not helping very much. I blame the small inner diameter of that coil for it.

In scenarios like this, for more optimal heat transfer, the surface areas should be a closer match. That's achieved by using larger diameter tubing.

 

[sibelman]

for more optimal heat transfer the surface areas should be a closer match. That's achieved by using larger diameter tubing.

This is cool. Also, seems like being able to move more coolant per minute could be a plus.