Gordon Strong water adjustment question

[briggssteel]

Hey guys. New to the thread and I'm starting off with a question on water. I've been listening and reading up on information about water chemistry pertaining to brewing. I first listened to the water shows on brew strong and thought I got a pretty good handle on water. Then I recently listened to a couple of interviews with Gordon Strong where he talked about what he did to his water. He said that he uses store bought RO water, adjusts all of his brewing water to have a PH of 5.5, and normally only adds a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash.(For bitter beers it sounds like he will add some gypsum). For dark or crystal grains he adds them after the mash and before recirculation so he doesn't have to add anything to raise the mash.

Now there are a couple of things that confused me about this. First of all, I thought you needed minerals in the mash (more than just calcium and chloride). Secondly, he mentioned this in an interview about Porters. According to Palmer and a lot of other sources, darker beers need a good portion of alkalinity, specifically residual alkalinity. Doing Gordon's method it seems you wouldn't get any at all. His methods seem to go against what a lot of other good sources have said, but it's hard to argue against someone who's been successful as him. What are your thoughts?

P.S.

If I'm misunderstanding something about what he's doing and you guys know, please let me know.

 

[mabrungard]

Reserving the acidic dark and crystal grains until the end of the mash will allow the majority of the mash to convert at a more ideal pH. It does work well with that respect. My only concern is the subsequent effect on the overall pH of the wort in the kettle. Since I don't practice that 'reserve the roast' method, I don't know if the overall wort pH drops enough to worry about or not. My inclination is that it would produce a minor depression in the wort pH, but its not likely to be more than a tenth or two.

A depressed mash and wort pH does introduce some effects on the beer. The obvious one is that the beer might taste a little sharper from the increased acidity. Other more nebulous factors include a reduction in the extraction of color and flavor from the roast grains and a diminishment in the hop expression. Fortunately, these last factors can be designed around via recipe adjustments.

Its hard to argue with Gordon's success. I haven't tasted any of his dark beers and it appears that the only dark beer that propelled him to being a 3-time Ninkasi Award winner was a Schwartzbier. That style is more characterized with more emphasis on color and less on roast grain flavors. I'm thinking that the jury may actually still be out on this method.

If you are dealing with a very low alkalinity water like RO, then this method is a relatively easy workaround. Go for it!

 

[briggssteel]

Thanks for all the good info! So you think maybe if I added some baking soda to the boil using this method it would add some alkalinity and increase the overall PH and flavor of the darker beer?

 

[enricocoron]

For your first question, pretty much all of the cofactors necessary for conversion are in the grain, otherwise the sugars wouldn't be released for the plant to grow (or would grow if not for the cruel cruel maltster). Pilsener and Helles wouldn't be viable styles if pure water couldn't work with base malt enzymes to convert.

Second adding dark grains late is perfectly valid, Gordon does this or steeps a cold tea which is actually recommended by some maltsters with grains 120L or higher, some like the roastier sometimes borderline astrigent flavors of dark malts and some like to soften this, there is no right answer. Also Koshtricher Shwarzbier is pretty full on when it comes to roasted flavor and Germans in Saxony regard it as one of the top in the style. Not sure what they do there but the emphasis is definitely on the roasted malts.

Third why use RO water for a porter? Is there something wrong with your water? I would only use RO water and build up for Pales, Pilseners, some Belgian ales, etc. If you are insistent though I would add the baking soda to the boil to bring it up to Dublin or London levels.

 

[ajdelange]

Hey guys. New to the thread and I'm starting off with a question on water. I've been listening and reading up on information about water chemistry pertaining to brewing. I first listened to the water shows on brew strong and thought I got a pretty good handle on water.

Opinions on how to treat water differ and of course this reflects the historical diversity of beer styles which were driven in large measure by available water.

Then I recently listened to a couple of interviews with Gordon Strong where he talked about what he did to his water. He said that he uses store bought RO water, adjusts all of his brewing water to have a PH of 5.5, and normally only adds a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash.(For bitter beers it sounds like he will add some gypsum). For dark or crystal grains he adds them after the mash and before recirculation so he doesn't have to add anything to raise the mash.

Now there are a couple of things that confused me about this. First of all, I thought you needed minerals in the mash (more than just calcium and chloride).

Well Gordon, many of the larger commercial brewers and a few home brewers have discovered that you don't. While high mineral content is an essential part of some beers in general people seem to prefer beers made with lower mineral content. There is a bit of a danger of a 'white bread' situation arising but I have to agree that for the styles I like best the softer, less minerally presentation is preferrable.

Secondly, he mentioned this in an interview about Porters. According to Palmer and a lot of other sources, darker beers need a good portion of alkalinity, specifically residual alkalinity.

John kind of set the gain too high when he started playing with the correlation between color and RA. There is indeed a correlation but it is a very weak one. Most beers, including some dark ones, require acid rather than alkali (residual alkalinity) in order to establish proper mash pH. I certainly have found this to be the case with the few dark beers that I do. John's position, as stated at the AHA conference in Seattle a few weeks back, is now much more moderate.

Doing Gordon's method it seems you wouldn't get any at all.

Sometimes you don't nor is it required in many cases.

His methods seem to go against what a lot of other good sources have said, but it's hard to argue against someone who's been successful as him.

Gordon is smarter than the average bear when it comes to these things. What he and others have learned will eventually become accepted. In fact it already is to some extent. More and more people I know are now brewing with RO water or mixing some RO water in with their mains/well water.

What are your thoughts?

When Gordon comes to one of my talks or I go to one of his there is what used to be called 'preaching to the choir'.

Now there are those who will tell you that even if you get mash pH correct in a dark beer that the kettle pH will go too low as will the beer pH with the result that the beer will taste 'thin'. I think Gordon would even agree that this is a possibility as he feels that extraction of acid continues after the mash likening it to the souring of coffee left in an office pot for hours. That is why he adds dark malt after the mash. Martin who posted here and I think John Palmer would agree with this. It is my experience that if the mash pH is correct the rest of the process tracks but my experience isn't the universe of brewing experience. As I say I don't do many dark beers. This does not happen to my stouts, Marzens or Bocks. The answer for you is that you must experiment. If you find that your dark beers are closer to what you want by the addition of some alkalinity then you should add some alkalinity but if they are better (by whatever your criterion is) without then you should not.

With respect to following Gordon's recommended procedure (buy his book if you want what he says in black and white in one place as opposed to trying to piece it together from bulletin boards, mp3's etc) you might want to consider it in the terms in which he closed his talk in Belvue: "Try it - you might like the results.

 

[briggssteel]

Thanks for all of the great responses and info guys. I think I'll try what Gordon does and see if I like how it turns out. If not I'll adjust from there. I really like the concept of adding the darker and crystal grains at the end or after the mash so I don't have to add a bunch of chalk and baking soda.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for all of the great responses and info guys. I think I'll try what Gordon does and see if I like how it turns out. If not I'll adjust from there. I really like the concept of adding the darker and crystal grains at the end or after the mash so I don't have to add a bunch of chalk and baking soda.

I've never actually had a mash pH go too low, even when using dark grains but I assume it's possible. Since I don't like the taste of baking soda, I've never used it in beer. If I actually had a beer with a too-low pH, there isn't much I would do at that time but for the next time I"d be ready with some pickling lime. Most often, a too-high pH is a problem and not a too-low pH.

If you're really worried about it, you could do a mini sized test mash to double check the pH before brewing.