Goose Island Sofie...AG Clone ideas?

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Brocster

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Just had my first bottle of this last night and was blown away. I can't seem to find a direct recipe match anywhere and was hoping someone may have an idea on a recipe formulation.

I would rate this as the best Farmhouse Ale/Saison that I have tried.

:rockin:
 
Matilda's very good. Sofie is awesome, though, just a fantastic beer.

There's a lot of info on that page to get you in the ballpark:
Malt: Pilsner, wheat
I'd go Belgian pilsner and wheat malt, probably about 10% wheat to start with
ABV: 6.5%, very dry
Yeast: wild (It tastes Brett brux-y to me.)

I'd probably go with French Saison yeast and a Brett B. culture added after a couple of days of primary. Mash higher than a typical saison, more in the normal 153ish range, to leave a little for the brett to work with. 9 lbs of pilsen and 1 lb of wheat malt gets you in the ABV ballpark if final attenuation (after brett's done its work) is good.

Hops: Amarillo, 25 IBUs
I'd probably go 1oz at 60 minutes (plus or minus--hit the IBUs with the AA% of your hops) with no late additions. Not much hop aroma that I remember here.

Oaking: Definitely needs an oaking regimen. Medium toast oak cubes. They're previously used, so I'd boil in water for 30 minutes to get rid of some of the harsher character. If you really want to simulate the wine barrel thing, you could soak them in a dry white wine for a few weeks ahead of time. It's not a super oaky character, so I'd taste after 3 weeks or so and see if there's enough or keep going.

Citrus: It's not an overpowering citrus, so I'd be tempted to do this at the start of aging rather than the end. Maybe zest an orange in at the time you add the oak?

With the brett in there you're going to want to age it for a good long while before bottling.
 
Matilda's very good. Sofie is awesome, though, just a fantastic beer.

There's a lot of info on that page to get you in the ballpark:
Malt: Pilsner, wheat
I'd go Belgian pilsner and wheat malt, probably about 10% wheat to start with
ABV: 6.5%, very dry
Yeast: wild (It tastes Brett brux-y to me.)

I'd probably go with French Saison yeast and a Brett B. culture added after a couple of days of primary. Mash higher than a typical saison, more in the normal 153ish range, to leave a little for the brett to work with. 9 lbs of pilsen and 1 lb of wheat malt gets you in the ABV ballpark if final attenuation (after brett's done its work) is good.

Hops: Amarillo, 25 IBUs
I'd probably go 1oz at 60 minutes (plus or minus--hit the IBUs with the AA% of your hops) with no late additions. Not much hop aroma that I remember here.

Oaking: Definitely needs an oaking regimen. Medium toast oak cubes. They're previously used, so I'd boil in water for 30 minutes to get rid of some of the harsher character. If you really want to simulate the wine barrel thing, you could soak them in a dry white wine for a few weeks ahead of time. It's not a super oaky character, so I'd taste after 3 weeks or so and see if there's enough or keep going.

Citrus: It's not an overpowering citrus, so I'd be tempted to do this at the start of aging rather than the end. Maybe zest an orange in at the time you add the oak?

With the brett in there you're going to want to age it for a good long while before bottling.

Just to pull that stream of consciousness together, first guess:

Mash 9 lbs of Belgian pilsner and 1 lb of wheat malt @153F until full conversion
Add 1 oz of Amarillo @60 mins

Ferment with Wyeast 3711 French Saison (proper starter); after 48 hours, pitch Brett B as well

When primary is done, rack to secondary, add the oak cubes (treated as above) and orange zest. After c. 3 weeks, taste for oakiness; you want the overall oak to be just a bit more than you'd want in the final product. If it's not there yet, taste again every week (or longer if it was nowhere near).

Once you're there, rack to a new secondary. Let bulk age for 6 months before bottling.
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I am going to try to get a good replica going. Great ideas from the posters here...

btw... I really like Matilda too. I think it is a fantastic beer, but I was blown away by Sofie, especially since the style is not my favorite.

What does everyone think of fermentation temps? I am wondering if mid 70's ambient is the right call.
 
I was underwhelmed by Sofie. I guess I need to try it again. There's definitely Brett B in there, but not a ton (although I bet this varies with bottle age). I would mash lower and add the brett later otherwise I think you'll end up with too much Brett character.
 
I was underwhelmed by Sofie. I guess I need to try it again. There's definitely Brett B in there, but not a ton (although I bet this varies with bottle age). I would mash lower and add the brett later otherwise I think you'll end up with too much Brett character.

Could be. Sofie seemed to have a pretty reasonable brett character to me--not overwhelming, but it was a noticeably funky beer. Like you say that probably varies with age.

Usually for a bretty-beer I'll mash high and pitch brett together with the main strain, so I was thinking a normal (153ish) mash temp and a 2 day delay on the brett pitch would mute it some (especially since the 3711 Saison is a beast; it rips through wort IME). But I could see it being too much, especially if your Sofie was light on the brett character.

Of course, the joy of homebrewing is that ultimately it's up to what Brocster wants taste-wise just as much as what Sofie did tastewise!

Brett B (as opposed to Brett C or L) was just a guess based on my memory of the flavor--Sofie seemed barnyard/leathery, but nothing really in the way of sourness or fruitiness. Any other ideas are certainly welcome.
 
I had it last weekend.
I'm thinking WY 3724 (Belgian saison) might be the way to go instead of the French saison WY 3711.
My reasoning being that the above brewer video notes acid on the finish which is in the WY description of # 3724 & not # 3711.
thoughts?

anyone brewed the clone?
 
That is a great video - thanks for sharing it!

It really was. I've met and drank with Greg on multiple occasions, and he's one of the coolest guys to talk beer with. I love what Goose Island is doing with their newer beers, and think that they represent what's to come in the future of American beers; multiple, parallel fermentations that get blended and aged in the bottle. Great video.
 
I had a rather fresh bottle of this right around the time it was released, and I thought that the orange was very over powering. Not criticizing the beer, just saying that you should expect the orange to need time to mellow in the bottle. Also, I believe that a portion is aged in white wine barrels (Pinot Gris, I believe?). I think you could replicate this by adding some wine at bottling, rather than soaking a portion of your oak in wine.
good luck.
 
any updates on a clone? this is a great, great beer.

i'd also like to get my hands on those stemmed glasses.
 
any updates on a clone? this is a great, great beer.

i'd also like to get my hands on those stemmed glasses.


I'm going to be brewing this recipe soon, so I'll keep the thread alive once I get everything in place.

Good luck finding the glassware. I scoured the internet and came up dry. I may have a source and if she comes through, I'll pass along her info.
 
I attended the Columbus Beerfest this past weekend and had Sofie for the first time. It was my favorite of the entire show. I want to make this soon. Did you decide on a final recipe for yours? I have never made a Brett beer so I am having a tough time deciding which strains to use. I think the Wyeast Belgian Saison 3724 is the right choice but can't decide if Brett B or Brett L would be the right one....I'm leaning towards Brett B. I can't wait to sip on this in June....such a good brew. Any updates would be greatly appreciated.
 
I would definitely choose Brett B over Brett L for this brew. The brett flavors should be subtle with this beer and I thinking using lambicus or clausenii would be overpowering or too funky.

Sofie AG Clone
Brew Type: All Grain
Style: Saison
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Volume: 7.00 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)


Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 78.26 %
0.75 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 6.52 %
0.75 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.52 %
1.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8.70 %

1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 29.3 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (0 min) Hops -

1.00 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 0.0 min) Misc
2.00 oz Oak Chips (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc


1 Pkgs Belgian Saison I Ale (White Labs #WLP565)
1 Pkgs Brettanomyces Bruxellensis (Wyeast Labs #3112)

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.019 SG
Estimated Color: 4.8 SRM
Bitterness: 29.3 IBU
Alpha Acid Units: 8.5 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 6.20 %
Notes
*Start fermentation at 68 and ramp up to 80 at the end of fermentation.
-----------------
Mashed from 152 down to 147 over the course of 90 minutes. Although beersmith says this will finish at 1.019, I expect for it to finish below 1.010 with the Brett.

I got this in the fermenter this weekend and I'm planning on letting it go a week or so before pitching the vial of Brett B. I'll keep everyone updated.

BK
 
On 1/18, I brewed this w/ Belgian WL Saison and a fermentation blanket at mid 70's temps per bucket stick-on temp label. Ripped through wort in 3 days, tasted f'ing rocking. Added Brett B on 1/21.... we shall see! I will taste this weekend.
*Edit: tastes good. I added Brett 1 month ago, and today 2/16, I added orange zest + oak chip liquid (both soaked in vodka for weeks). Plan to let it go one more week, then keg.
 
Well, I am almost ready to try. It has been sitting in secondary for 3 weeks now after spending 3 in primary. I just racked to the keg and it tasted FANTASTIC!!!! I am still waiting for the actual pull from the tap before I judge. It will be ready to go for the Super Bowl, and I will post an update with the recipe.

Jazzed for this one!
 
awesome! i just went to the brewpub last weekend. Good food, good beers, (Naughty Goose is incredible), but i was disappointed that they didn't have Pepe Nero. Really wanted to try that.

Brocster, what did you end up doing?
 
yeah, please keep this updated.

are you soaking the oak in chardonnay or anything?

Nah probably not. I thought about it, but am going to keep it pretty clean this time around. Depending on how this batch tastes, I may do it in subsequent batches.

Just pitched the Brett B yesterday. The white labs saison yeast dropped it from 1.050 to 1.012, so this batch should finish nice and dry. Was going to let it ferment out for a few weeks, then rack to secondary with oak and bitter orange peel.
 
Can't wait to make this one. My LHBS just called and the yeast and Brett are in finally. I decided to go with White Labs 550 Belgian Ale and and White Labs 650 Brett B. I think I'm gonna follow the recipe listed here
9 Lbs Pilsner
1 Lb Wheat
24 IBU Amarillo
Mash lower around 151-152 to get a nice dry finish. Pitch Belgian Ale yeast and then add Brett B 48-72 hours into fermentation. Rack into secondary after three weeks and add wine soaked oak chips and bitter orange peel. Let sit in dark basement at 65 degrees for 5-6 months removing oak chips once I feel it has enough oak taste. How long do you think I should leave oak in? First time I have used oak chips. The Brett will form a pellicle right? and then the pellicle will fall after time? From what I've read that is when you know it's time to bottle? First time I've used Brett in anything also. Thanks for the support.....if you see anything weird that I'm doing please let me know. Can't wait to taste this one.....
 
Well, I am almost ready to try. It has been sitting in secondary for 3 weeks now after spending 3 in primary. I just racked to the keg and it tasted FANTASTIC!!!! I am still waiting for the actual pull from the tap before I judge. It will be ready to go for the Super Bowl, and I will post an update with the recipe.

Jazzed for this one!

so!? don't keep us hangin! :)
 
Update on my recipe:

After pitching the brett B, I let it sit for two weeks. Started off at 74F and ramped up to 77F. After two weeks, the brett has dropped the gravity by 2 points (1.012-->1.010). The beer at this point is cloudy and looks a bit like lemonade. Tastes great though: some earthy and spicy notes followed up with a small amount of tart funkiness at the end. Currently I have the beer in my temp controlled freezer at 67F. Going to let it sit for a month or so and re-check things.
 
interesting. can i asked why the 3/4lb of munich?

how does it compare at this point to Sofie?

I've also just tried their Pepe Nero. To be honest, it seemed very close to Sofie, lol. just a hit of roasted malts at the very back end, and only when it warms up.
 
interesting. can i asked why the 3/4lb of munich?

how does it compare at this point to Sofie?

I've also just tried their Pepe Nero. To be honest, it seemed very close to Sofie, lol. just a hit of roasted malts at the very back end, and only when it warms up.

After looking at this thread a few times, I'm not sure why I added the munich malt. I think I hybridized this recipe from the Brewing Classic Styles version, along with information from Farmhouse Brews. I always do a lot of research before I brew, so there must be a good reason.

In regards to how it compares, I think it might be too aggressive with the spicy peppery notes right now but that should mellow out (side note: the sample I drew was about 75F, so that may play a role). I have not added the oak or orange zest yet, so the jury is still out on how it compares exactly to Sofie. I definitely think it will be a flavorful, easy drinking spring/summer brew in the end.
 
Thanks for the update. I made mine today....it's wrapped in a sleeping bag in front of a heater vent. I don't have anything to increase the temp. It's at 68 right now so hopefully when it starts to ferment it will cruise in the 70's. I need to buy a heating pad.
 
I am going to try this recipe as Sofie is one of mine and my wife's favorite beers. I have a few questions from those who have tried it.

1. How long did you let it sit on the oak chips? Should I rack to secondary, pitch the Brett and add the oak chips at the same time? Or should I wait to add the oak?
2. I see that the bitter orange peel is added at the end of the boil. Does this need to be crushed or ground up? Is this in place of the orange zest that Goose Island uses?
3. Related to question 2, should I add orange zest in the secondary?
4. I am planning on getting my Brett from the dregs of Sofie bottles. Has anyone else tried this instead of the Wyeast Brett B?
 
I am going to try this recipe as Sofie is one of mine and my wife's favorite beers. I have a few questions from those who have tried it.

1. How long did you let it sit on the oak chips? Should I rack to secondary, pitch the Brett and add the oak chips at the same time? Or should I wait to add the oak?
2. I see that the bitter orange peel is added at the end of the boil. Does this need to be crushed or ground up? Is this in place of the orange zest that Goose Island uses?
3. Related to question 2, should I add orange zest in the secondary?
4. I am planning on getting my Brett from the dregs of Sofie bottles. Has anyone else tried this instead of the Wyeast Brett B?

1. Currently sitting on oak (and orange peel). Will probably let it hang out for a few (+/- 2) weeks.
2. I added the orange peel at the same time as the oak.
3. You can, but the brew shops sell orange peel. Easy for me. I'm sure you can use fresh orange zest, but it might be too sweet coming from the oranges that are readily available. I think you'd have to get special bitter oranges to get something comparable.
4. I just pitched a vial of White Labs Brett B. I'm unsure if goose island uses brett for it's bottle conditioning or if they use their house yeast. Maybe pitch a smack pack/vial + sofie dregs for a more authentic flavor.

BK
 
anyone have this years? seems like a lot more orange/wine character to me. this weekend i might do a side by side comparison between 2010 and 2011
 
I brewed mine 6 weeks ago. Primary for 2 weeks. When I racked to my secondary I added fresh orange zest from 1 baseball sized orange, 4 oz of oak chips that had been soaked in white wine and a vile of White Labs Brett B. I let that sit for 2 weeks and then racked to a third carboy. I forgot about it until today. It has a nice pellicle formed and is looks like the airlock is very slowly moving. I'm gonna try to forget about it until end of summer. Give that Brett some time to funk it up a little. When I racked to the third carboy I sampled it. The orange flavor was nice but I didn't get alot of oak. It was there but not an up front taste. I think it's gonna be a great beer.
 
Last week (4/13), I brewed a batch of this. It was my first AG beer and so far it is going well. BeerSmith predicted my OG @ 1.063, I got 1.059.

I mashed at 152 for an hour and did a 60 min boil.

I pitched WLP565 in a 3 quart starter, aerated for 45 minutes. Had vigorous fermentation within 12 hours. Fermentation was in the basement with an ambient around 68, the bucket was at 71.

4 days in (4/17) the gravity was at 1.019. At this point, I pitched a starter I made from the dregs of a Sofie 4-pack. To make the starter, I made a low gravity 500 ml wort with DME and then just dumped the dregs in from the bottles for about a week. I had a nice yeast cake on the bottom of the flask when I pitched it. Swirled the whole flask up and dumped the starter beer in with the yeast. Two days later I had what looked like a pellicle when I looked through the airlock hole.

As of tonight (4/22), the gravity is down to 1.008. It has a great smell and it appears that the pellicle has fallen (if there was one, I didn't open the bucket earlier, just looked through the airlock hole) and the yeast is starting to clump on the surface. The picture of the bucket is from today.

In a couple of weeks, once I get a secondary emptied and bottled, I am going to rack onto some oak chips and bitter orange peel.

Sofie.jpg
 
Well, how are these brews doing? I've only had Sofie twice but its one of my favorites of the style. I'm itching to brew something similar as well!
 
Just picked up everyting to make this sofie clone. How did turn out for everyone? Any tips or advice on it?
 

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