Glass Conical?

[Beyowka]

Pros:
- visible fermentation, same as carboy
- yeast and trub dump, same as conical

Cons:
- fragile, like any glass
- they don't exist

I had a thought that the separatory funnels used in chemistry could be modified for use in brewing, so I called a custom lab fab company nearby to get their thoughts. They said it would be doable in two ways;
- all-custom design to be built from scratch, costs of a 25l prototype would be a little more than a stainless fermentor with all the bells and whistles, but the subsequent units would be much less to produce.
- modified carboy, as follows; weld the top off and attach a custom cone/stopcock apparatus, flip it over then punch a blowoff on the flat side. I imagine this would be a lot less expensive

Are either of these ideas worth exploring?

 

[Brewing Clamper]

Woah! A glass conical... Well as much as I like the idea, I personally would not get one unless I know I could brace the crap out of it here in quake country. It would be worth it if you could get enough people interested to offset the cost of the prototype. Once that's done, I'm sure subsequent units will be quite cheap (relative). Good luck dude, I'm certainly curious...

 

[cwilliams108]

I would think it would be a fairly simple thing to do. A conical shaped glass cast with the top and bottom threaded to have the lid and dump valve accept a threaded and gasketed metal or plastic component. Side dump may be slightly more difficult but I would assume still doable. This would be *if* you could convince a glass company that it would be financially beneficial to spend the money in R&D and castings to make such a thing.

 

[BadgerBrewer]

What would you honestly think the final cost of such a thing would be? I would guess more than $100 a piece, which can be very costly when they drop/tip over and crack. At least with SS you have a virtual lifetime of use out of it.

 

[Beyowka]

CW - the glass co says it's doable. the cost is on me not them. I was thinking barbed connections or none at all instead of threads but hey why not.

BB - stainless isn't clear. meanwhile i have a solid record with glass carboys - how often do stainless steel fermentors tip over anyway?

 

[cwilliams108]

I was just thinking for ease of cleaning being able to completely remove everything and scrub the @#$@ out of it.

 

[Homercidal]

Take a standard Carboy
Turn it upside down
trepan a hole in the bottom (top)

The rest is just assorted parts.

 

[Mirilis]

I would guess that you would have better luck finding someplace to make a PET conical. It would have all the benefits you want. light / durable / clear / trub dump. But it would have the downside of being able to be scratched easier. But if your an OCD cleaner then you shouldnt have an issue.

 

[Beyowka]

CW - i was figuring to just apply regular glass carboy cleaning procedures, i don't have many problems with those as it is now with the carboys. i'm thinking that if I would have to take apart a stainless conical to clean it, i can't really call that "easier", but i don't have any experience there so i don't really know if that's accurate.

HC - i've heard that the angle of the shoulder on an inverted carboy is insufficient for proper dumpage. hence the mods in option #2

M - translucent PET > stainless opaque but transparent glass >> translucent PET. plus the scratching and cleaning thing.

Not trying to be obstinate or difficult here, i do greatly appreciate the participation, just trying to narrow down the ideas. Thanks all

 

[BadgerBrewer]

I agree that a SS conical doesn't tip over too often, but they have extension legs. Are you thinking of creating some sort of base/holder for the glass conical to sit in? I am not sure, but I don't think those carboy haulers would so it would have to be something custom.

I enjoy the creative process Beyowka!

 

[Beyowka]

BC, BB - absolutely this thing would have to be mounted on a stand of some type.
The separatory funnels I mentioned earlier use ring stands, which would not be sufficient for this size.
The stainless steel legs option would not be available in a glass application

I was expecting to use some sturdy wood in a box format; rest the cone of the fermentor on a shelf with a hole of appropriate diameter while possibly belting the tank to the upper half of the box. Nothing too fancy.

 

[cwilliams108]

If the lid was completely removable, much like a ss conical it should be way easier to clean than a carboy. I really like the idea of a cast glass conical. Seems to me it would have all the advantages of a ss with the only drawback be breakage which just means be careful (and really with it's contents tell me you wouldn't be careful anyway)

 

[Beyowka]

I think adding the lid and threads would jack up the price, but I will ask about it. I am unsure whether the glass lab plans to create a cast or if they just custom blow each part and assemble with glass welds, but I will ask about that as well. I think welds are cheaper, which is why option #2 is basically just glass repair, whereas option #1 may be more expensive because of the expense of creating a mold.

Are there any pros/cons I should consider with respect to glass welds vs. glass casting?

 

[Jester369]

You have visibility listed as a pro, and as much as I enjoy watching the yeasties do their thing, I would have to list visibility as a con. Light is not your beer's friend

 

[Beyowka]

agreed - i would have the clear glass conical covered for most of the time with black tshirts as I do now with my glass carboys.

 

[lamarguy]

Pros:
- visible fermentation, same as carboy
- yeast and trub dump, same as conical

Cons:
- fragile, like any glass
- they don't exist

If you build it, they will break. When they break and seriously hurt someone, people will start a thread about how to prevent injury by coating the glass with an opaque elastomer or duct tape....Lots of money and time will be wasted attempting to reinvent a nearly perfect wheel.

I'm off to grab a soda and popcorn for this cinematic event.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Take a standard Carboy
Turn it upside down
trepan a hole in the bottom (top)

The rest is just assorted parts.

Nope. The picth of the cone in a standard carboy is not substantial enough to force yeast into a cone. That is the main reason why that funky carboy inverter thingamajig is such a failure.

Carboy cone geometry doesn't work with yeast.

 

[Beyowka]

If you build it, they will break. When they break and seriously hurt someone, people will start a thread about how to prevent injury by coating the glass with an opaque elastomer or duct tape....Lots of money and time will be wasted attempting to reinvent a nearly perfect wheel.

I hope that the material that makes the conical will be of the same quality as the glass carboys I currently use. I also hope that any stability issues can be mitigated with an appropriate fermenter stand of some type. obviously glass can be misused, but that's for the most part preventable, so i'm not concerned about the breakage.

As for the "nearly perfect wheel", refer to the pros/cons in my original post, i think it's plain to see that there's room for improvement in at least a couple of ways. i would hope that the time spent here is not wasteful, if it turns out that it's not a feasible project, at least I learned something.

 

[lamarguy]

I hope that the material that makes the conical will be of the same quality as the glass carboys I currently use. I also hope that any stability issues can be mitigated with an appropriate fermenter stand of some type.

And so it begins. You're already adding design complexity in an attempt to work around a poor choice of construction material for a conical. It won't be long before someone suggests coating the glass to help prevent injury when it breaks.

obviously glass can be misused by idiots, but that's for the most part preventable, so i'm not concerned about the breakage.

I suggest you choose your words more wisely next time before calling a bunch of folks who broke a carboy "idiots".

Dropped my glass carboy today...

Glass carboys rock...until you drop one!

Broke my first carboy! Story....

Injuries sustained while brewing

The Exploding Carboy Club...

Warning - Be Careful With Glass Carboys

...

As for the "nearly perfect wheel", refer to the pros/cons in my original post

That's what I was referring too.

i would hope that the time spent here is not wasteful, if it turns out that it's not a feasible project, at least I learned something.

Just trying to warn you...But, some people like walking uphill, even if the hill is prone to mudslides.

 

[Beyowka]

You're already adding design complexity in an attempt to work around a poor choice of construction material for a conical.

all conicals have stands of some type, use of a stand does not add any design complexity.

It won't be long before someone suggests coating the glass to help prevent injury when it breaks.

i'm not familiar with these "glass coaters" you keep mentioning, but in general, if someone wants to try to improve on an idea, i'm all for it. I would venture that over-engineering does not equal improvement, and i don't think it would be necessary for me, but if others want to see that differently, and they choose to coat the glass (or over-engineer in any other way) and it works for them, I don't have a problem with it.

I suggest you choose your words more wisely next time before calling a bunch of folks who broke a carboy "idiots".

In my experience, glass does not malfunction at random; proper safety precautions eliminate these types of accidents, and therefore I won't be discouraged with stories of other people and their preventable misfortunes.

 

[weirdboy]

Why not use a PET conical instead?

 

[lamarguy]

In my experience, glass does not malfunction at random; proper safety precautions eliminate these types of accidents, and therefore I won't be discouraged with stories of other people and their preventable misfortunes. Perhaps a poor choice to call out any one specific person, but in general, if the shoe fits...

Probably best not to throw stones if you live in a glass house...or desire to build a glass conical.

Either way, I'll leave you to your build...Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents before someone loses their investment or an appendage.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Why not use a PET conical instead?

Ohhhhh. Ohhhhhh. Ohhhh.

How about stainless steel?

All of the cleaning pros of glass with none of the light permeable, material shattering skin lacerating cons.

Somebody shoulda thought of this before. I am gonna make millions.

 

[Clayton]

you can get a lot of the larger pyrex brand carboys with that glass coating , its like a rubber on the out side and if the glass breaks it keeps it all together and the sharp bits on the inside

 

[Beyowka]

if the discussion of this idea has already taken place, i'd appreciate a link. if not, let's press on then.

 

[weirdboy]

Ohhhhh. Ohhhhhh. Ohhhh.

How about stainless steel?

All of the cleaning pros of glass with none of the light permeable, material shattering skin lacerating cons.

Somebody shoulda thought of this before. I am gonna make millions.

I'm pretty sure in the OP he explicitly stated he wanted to be able to see the fermentation, which is why he's not interested in SS. PET does not suffer that problem.

 

[remilard]

Two significant downsides compared to stainless are that you can not make it sanitary (can't weld in 3A fittings) and you can't pressurize it.

So you have at best a small portion of the functionality of a well designed (commercial or B3) conical. All this and breakable. Why do you want a conical? Yeast removal? Just use two carboys and buy a racking cane, problem solved.

 

[Beyowka]

R - as far as i have used glass carboys, i have been able to sanitize them satisfactorily, i have never needed to pressurize them, and I too have broken a carboy but just the one so while i admit that i have been lucky I have not assessed the glass material as a critical risk. minimal downside.

i enjoy watching the fermentation in my carboys, both for entertainment and function, but I am looking to explore the yeast and trub dump option on conicals as a potential improvement on the racking cane option, which certainly has its own pros and cons. so really, at best i have all the necessary function of a conical AND a carboy and maybe a lot cheaper too. Maximum upside.

at worst i'll spend a million bucks on something that never works, but the relative odds are in my favor, cause I don't have a million bucks. at the very least it's worth talking about for the moment anyway, and i appreciate your input.

Everyone take a drink.

meanwhile, i just found this link from NB forums circa 2005 - sorry i didn't find this sooner but yknow how it goes, so many internets, so little time.
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17477&start=0
Really weird how the OP starts the thread in a similar manner, i swear i had not seen this before.

this thread reminded me that i had not taken into consideration other glass vessels such as demijohns, and ordinary glass jugs as potential starting points.

for example, this 14.25 gal demijohn (http://store.homebrewheaven.com/54l-1425-gallon-demi-john-glass-carboy-p90.aspx) for $60 would only need a blowoff hole punched in the bottom, a threaded dump head (possibly in the form of a detachable = sanitizable? adaptor) - or a stopcock that is welded on - and a reliable stand.

that can't be that difficult.

in re: the stand I was thinking maybe a carboy drain stand of some type, which I have good experience with currently. maybe that would be acceptable as is, maybe it would take some modification.

 

[jjyoung]

Many, many years ago (about 20) when I tried the inverted carboy route I used a standard carboy cap and connected it to the carboy opening with an adjust nylon strap (think tie-wrap with a thumb wheel to tighten it up). I then ran a blowoff tube (using a racking cane) through the center opening of the carboy cap and clamped it with a hose clamp. I ran a smaller plastic tube through the other opening in the carboy cap and closed it off with a valve so I could take samples for gravity measurement.

While I was able to ferment in it I wasn't able to drain the trub in the bottom because of the shallow pitch of the carboy top (this problem was mentioned in an earlier post). However, that demi john may solve that problem.

 

[weirdboy]

I would be worried about building up pressure in that demijohn. I mean with it sitting the right way and an airlock on there, I'm sure it's fine but inverted and building up CO2 pressure I'd be worried.

I've had a regular carboy explode when the blow-off tube got clogged in the middle of the night.