Give me the jist on whirlpooling for hop flavor

[ncbrewer]

I add the whirlpool hops at 190 for 30 minutes - it finishes at 180. With a little experimenting, I've found this gives the equivalent utilization of boiling for 10 minutes, and it's pretty consistent. For my calculations, I also add 10 minutes to the other hops added previously, but naturally it has very little impact on hops already boiled for 60 minutes.

 

[Coldies]

I have been on a long break (New baby, and life in general) from brewing and recently cleaned all my equipment to brew in the next two weeks. The whirlpool is pretty new to me and I can't wait to try it. When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?

 

[ncbrewer]

When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?

I add my hops in loose, so all stay in for the whirlpool. Can't pick up any odd flavor from it - it probably doesn't matter.

 

[bmbigda]

I have been on a long break (New baby, and life in general) from brewing and recently cleaned all my equipment to brew in the next two weeks. The whirlpool is pretty new to me and I can't wait to try it. When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?

haha. I am in the same exact situation. 3 batches since Xmas though! welcome back. everyone is also mashing in giant bags apparently.

 

[Ike]

Again, if I wanted to just "give it a try," with a recipe I already trusted, how much? Drop an ounce in? Half an ounce? Whole or pellet?

Obviously, I'm a bit excited about all this...

 

[TxBigHops]

Just to pull on that thread - are you saying you can achieve hop bitterness at 212, but not 211, 210, 198, etc etc? In my opinion there must be some kind of non linear tail off in this range. When brewing a high IBU IPA, the bitterness achieved during this time might be negligible.

alpha acids isomerize into the compounds we perceive as bitterness most efficiently at 212. Time is also a factor, which is why hops added at 60 minutes give way more bitterness than ones added at 30.

Below 212 your efficiency simply tails off. Though there have been some studies on the actual efficiency i havent found a chart (or similiar) that plots the efficiency vs temp. I typically approximate it at 10% though it could be much less. Just like you would need fewer oz to get the same IBU if added at 60 minutes vs 30, you have to add way more at whirlpool if you want to get considerable bitterness from that addition.

The oils in hops have different boil temps, meaning they will boil off above that temp. Though I have read that some will boil off even above 140, i think those are few, so it ends up that most ppl accept 170-180 as ideal. Dry hopping primarily adds aroma, whereas the elevated temps in a whirlpool allow for some taste as well as aroma to be imparted.

Heady and Pliny both use a bittering charge and then all other hops are added in the whirlpool.

BeerFst answered your question, but since you asked me, I'll put it another way. The bitterness is not created solely by the temperature, but also by how long you boil the hops. And yes, most of my beers with whirlpool additions already have at least 50 IBUs of boil hops, so adding a few IBU from the whirlpool would not really be noticeable.

for the beer I just made, if I got 0 bitterness from whirlpool I would have a very sweet beer on my hands. and I don't. I realize I have a laughable sample size of 1 batch

Yes, you will still get some bitterness from the whirlpool hops, but it's hard to quantify how much. So for me personally, I use boil hops to achieve the my desired bitterness, and assume no IBUs from whirlpool hops added at below 180 degrees. On this recent beer, are you saying you put no hops at all into the boil and only used whirlpool hops at below 180? It wouldn't necessarily be sweet, as that would be a result of unfermentable sugars, but I wouldn't expect much bitterness.

 

[TxBigHops]

Again, if I wanted to just "give it a try," with a recipe I already trusted, how much? Drop an ounce in? Half an ounce? Whole or pellet?

Obviously, I'm a bit excited about all this...

Do you have a recipe in mind yet? Post it up, and we'll make some suggestions. I would think between 1 and 3 oz of aroma hops in a whirlpool, and roughly the same amount for dry hop would be typical for a 5 gallon batch, although I've seen examples of people using FAR more than that. Just depends how far you want to push the envelope and how much you're willing to spend on hops. I only use pellet hops, but if you want to deal with the mess, I don't see any reason why you can't use whole leaf.

 

[bmbigda]

Again, if I wanted to just "give it a try," with a recipe I already trusted, how much? Drop an ounce in? Half an ounce? Whole or pellet?



Obviously, I'm a bit excited about all this...

you could also try a clone attempt of a popular whirlpool hopped commercial beer.

 

[normonster]

you could also try a clone attempt of a popular whirlpool hopped commercial beer.

Yep! Just be prepared to come up with less wort at the end than normal....increase preboil size if possible.

 

[Ike]

Aha, great info! Just what I needed. As far as recipes go, I'm usually a "balanced ales" kind of guy, keeping the IBUs much lower than most of the people in this thread would think was criminal. BUT, that's because I'm not a big fan of the bitterness that I usually get from the higher IBU stuff I make. SO... here we go!

 

[TxBigHops]

Aha, great info! Just what I needed. As far as recipes go, I'm usually a "balanced ales" kind of guy, keeping the IBUs much lower than most of the people in this thread would think was criminal. BUT, that's because I'm not a big fan of the bitterness that I usually get from the higher IBU stuff I make. SO... here we go!

skydiver, I'm not sure what part of the country you are from, but in Texas we have an awesome IPA called Yellow Rose from Lone Pint Brewery. It's got a ton of lush fruity aroma and flavor, and a very smooth bitterness. It's also a SMaSH, so really simple to clone. My LHBS owner and member of my brew club knows the owner, and watched them brew it one day. He observed that they brew with mostly all late additions and a huge hopstand and dry hop. He helped me come up with this clone recipe.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/279814/ramblin-rose-smash-ipa

If the 79 IBUs scares you (it shouldn't) you could drop the 10 and 5 minute additions back to 1 oz and you'd be in the low 50s. This is a really nice beer. I've had friends who I never believed would drink an IPA not only drink this, but love it. Even some women who don't drink much beer at all loved it.

 

[bmbigda]

I did Maine beer company's peeper pale ale which has a documented recipe on here from the Brewer. it was particularly helpful to put it in beersmith, see what IBUs it expects, brew it, and compare that side by side with the commercial example.

 

[Calder]

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

 

[TxBigHops]

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect. Based on many peoples reports, it obviously is wrong.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

Why do you say that it is obviously wrong? I don't pretend to understand the chemistry, but that is pretty much what I've been saying this whole thread. (that IBUs come from the boil, not the hopstand)

 

[Calder]

Why do you say that it is obviously wrong? I don't pretend to understand the chemistry, but that is pretty much what I've been saying this whole thread. (that IBUs come from the boil, not the hopstand)

Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.

Maybe I will edit my last post.

 

[TxBigHops]

Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.

Maybe I will edit my last post.

OK, so you mean in other threads. Obviously it's not possible to follow every thread, but that's not something I have personally seen presented. Like I stated earlier, I don't know all the science, but it's been my understanding from my own research that little to no IBUs are contributed after the boil.

 

[slym2none]

I believe that alpha acids can still isomerize (causing bitterness) all the way down to 175-180° F. So, you can get bitterness after "the boil", it just won't be too much.

 

[normonster]

Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.



Maybe I will edit my last post.

I have experienced an IBU contribution from whirlpooling at flameout for sure. I had yet to read and remember the magic temp so I put 4 oz of Citra in at flameout and the results weren't pleasing to me at all.

 

[PeteNMA]

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

Isomerization is a change in the physical structure of a compound whilst its chemical structure remains unchanged. What you are describing is condensation of one variety or another.

Alpha acids from the hops isomerise over a range of temperatures. It is generally considered that they do not significantly isomerise much below about 180f.

You are correct that it is isomerised alpha acids which are largely responsible for hop bitterness.

So if you throw in some hops at flameout and then whirlpool, you will be getting some increase in IBUs as the wort is still hot enough to be isomerizing the alpha acids. Lots of commercial breweries operate in this manner, either transferring the wort to a separate whirlpool tank where they add hops, or adding hops and whirlpooling in the kettle.

 

[milldoggy]

Here is my process. It has been producing the flavor I enjoy. Very low on bitterness. Below is for a 10 gallon batch.

Fwh with a small amount

At 5 mins left, add an addition

At flameout, add the whirlpool hops. Cool to 190 immediately and steep for 15 min. Cool to 175 and add 30 whirlpool addition. Steep for 30 mins. Cool to 140 or less as fast as possible.

Ferment 2-3 weeks.

dry hop at 63(ambient basement temp for 3-4 days), move to fridge and chill to 34, let stand for 3 more days before removing dry hops

Details here- http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/967004/azacca-dust-hop-stand

 

[ncbrewer]

The BYO article http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands states "Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C). Homebrewers trying to calculate a beer's IBUs will need to guesstimate how much isomerization is occurring. The closer the wort is to 212 °F (100 °C) the higher the alpha acid isomerization rate." My experience is consistent with this. Hop stands starting at 190 give me significant additional bitterness, but those starting at 160 don't. Not scientific, but BYO is a respected source IMO.

 

[Ike]

I dig that there is no "power off" temperature where the removal of the hop oils will just stop. I do imagine, however, a law of diminishing returns, were as the wort cools the oil extraction is reduced.

If you're just pitching hops at a certain temp and letting things cool naturally, is there a end-temperature beyond which most folks figure it isn't worth the time to keep standing? I think I should be concerned about anything below 140 degrees, simply for the purposes of keeping things as microbe-free as possible.

 

[Calder]

I dig that there is no "power off" temperature where the removal of the hop oils will just stop. I do imagine, however, a law of diminishing returns, were as the wort cools the oil extraction is reduced.

If you're just pitching hops at a certain temp and letting things cool naturally, is there a end-temperature beyond which most folks figure it isn't worth the time to keep standing? I think I should be concerned about anything below 140 degrees, simply for the purposes of keeping things as microbe-free as possible.

Not much point going below 140, because most of the oils that are volitile below that temp were driven off during the drying process.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I kegged this yesterday. I did a 7 day dry hop (1.5oz/5gal), I ended up with great attenuation so I went from 1.061 to 1.006 with WLP001. It tasted really great and flavorful without a strong amount of bitterness going into the keg. I'm excited this to try this when it carbs up. I did a bit of rocking and put it on high pressure so I hope its ready to pour a few pints this weekend for the super bowl.

So no full report yet, but I could already tell that this beer had a lot of hop flavor without a ton of bitterness that my other IPA attempts have had, i'm pretty psyched about the whirlpooling method now for sure!

 

[m00ps]

I kegged this yesterday. I did a 7 day dry hop (1.5oz/5gal), I ended up with great attenuation so I went from 1.061 to 1.006 with WLP001. It tasted really great and flavorful without a strong amount of bitterness going into the keg. I'm excited this to try this when it carbs up. I did a bit of rocking and put it on high pressure so I hope its ready to pour a few pints this weekend for the super bowl.

So no full report yet, but I could already tell that this beer had a lot of hop flavor without a ton of bitterness that my other IPA attempts have had, i'm pretty psyched about the whirlpooling method now for sure!

congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

Yeah I already see myself falling down this rabbit hole!

 

[Ike]

congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

BTW: your avatar should be titled "Lactobasaurus" or maybe "Lactoraptor."

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Pulled the first pints of this one for the Super Bowl this weekend, this is far and away the best IPA I have made yet. There is tons of juicy citrusy flavor from the falconers flight '7-C's blend I used, and a real lack of over-bitterness that turns me off from many ipas.

Thus I conclude, as many before me have: Whirlpooling is awesome and took my IPA to that next level. It will be standard practice henceforth for my hoppy beers.

 

[Anyhowe]

Or we can actually test it....http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

 

[noslenwerd]

Or we can actually test it....http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

Great read... Those guys at Brulosophy do a great job.