GFCI Options

[quaboagbrewing]

2 steps forward.....perhaps 1 step back. So as of this afternoon I have a 240V 30A outlet installed in the garage. That's the 2 steps forward as it gets me closer to building out the electric brew house. The 1 step back is that I now wish I had gone with a GFCI breaker. In any case I now have a NEMA L14-30-R 125/250V outlet installed. Is my only option at this point an inline GFCI cord which appear to run around $200 or is there a different option that I am not considering. If I have to spend the $200 so be it......but want to make sure I understand all my options before deciding how to best GFCI protect this. I'll be using this to power a controller for a 20 gallon E-BIAB system (leaning towards this one: http://jaggerbushbrewing.com/BBR-10_p_63.html). Any feedback as always greatly appreciated.

 

[itsnotrequired]

why can't you get a gfci circuit breaker?

 

[quaboagbrewing]

why can't you get a gfci circuit breaker?

I certainly could just have the electrician come back and and remove the breaker he just installed and replace it with a GFCI breaker but between the cost of the breaker and installation probably looking at close to $200 anyways. Main reason I didn't go that route in the first place was that I heard having GFCI breakers installed was pretty pricey.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Remove the twist lock outlet. Pull the wires out. Since you have 4 wires you have everything you need to run them to a 50 amp Spa Panel in the same place. If you have to, use the current box as a place to splice. You can pick up a spa panel on e-bay for under $100 (I got one for $50).

Hang another box off the spa panel and put your twist lock outlet off of the SPA panel's GFCI breaker. This also gives you an emergency shut off.

I assume that since you have a 30 amp plug that it was wired off of a 30 amp breaker in your main panel with 10GA wires. Given this, the 50 amp spa breaker will never trip for an overload, because the 30 amp one on the main box will trip first. But, it will protect as a GFCI. If you do this, make sure you label the panel stating it is wired for 30 amps.

Remember, the spa panel's GFCI breaker only protects the specific 240 circuit wired off of it. It does not protect the whole panel if you add a 120v circuit or two. My spa panel has a few additional circuit spaces that I branched off of. But, they have to have GFCI outlets, like the one in the background of your picture.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Don't use it without GFCI! It is worth whatever money you need to spend.

 

[quaboagbrewing]

Don't use it without GFCI! It is worth whatever money you need to spend.

That wasn't an option. I won't do anything with this unless it's GFCI protected. Just trying to figure what the different options are so I don;t spend more then is necessary.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Your options are

1) Get a spa panel and install it yourself, total cost is probably ~125 plus your labor, this only works if you actually know what your doing...if your just winging it dont touch it.

2) Buy a $200 GFCI Cord

3) Pay the electrician to install a GFCI breaker, probably $200 or so. I would call them and get a quote.

In my mind #3 seems like the obvious choice if its anywhere near $200.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Remember, the spa panel's GFCI breaker only protects the specific 240 circuit wired off of it. It does not protect the whole panel if you add a 120v circuit or two. My spa panel has a few additional circuit spaces that I branched off of. But, they have to have GFCI outlets, like the one in the background of your picture.

i'm not following this. any circuits on the load side of the gfci circuit breaker will be properly protected (including 120 volt), provided the neutrals from the downstream circuits are wired back to the neutral connection on the load side of the gfci circuit breaker.

regarding the op, if you are comfortable with electricity and aren't concerned with permit stuff, it is very easy to swap out that regular circuit breaker with a gfci circuit breaker. all the 'hard' work of pulling the conductors, trimming to length, etc. is done for you. this is something you could do in honestly 10 minutes, i just did it myself about a month ago. breaker will probably run you $115.

 

[Mountainsax]

Your options are

1) Get a spa panel and install it yourself, total cost is probably ~125 plus your labor, this only works if you actually know what your doing...if your just winging it dont touch it.

2) Buy a $200 GFCI Cord

3) Pay the electrician to install a GFCI breaker, probably $200 or so. I would call them and get a quote.

In my mind #3 seems like the obvious choice if its anywhere near $200.

4) Replace the breaker yourself with a GFCI breaker in your main panel. I know not everyone is comfortable wiring 240, but if you are setting up an electric brewery, it might be time to learn!

Maybe get the quote from the electrician first. If he will give you a discount for the breaker he takes out, it might counter his labor cost. Worth a shot.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

i'm not following this. any circuits on the load side of the gfci circuit breaker will be properly protected (including 120 volt), provided the neutrals from the downstream circuits are wired back to the neutral connection on the load side of the gfci circuit breaker.

regarding the op, if you are comfortable with electricity and aren't concerned with permit stuff, it is very easy to swap out that regular circuit breaker with a gfci circuit breaker. all the 'hard' work of pulling the conductors, trimming to length, etc. is done for you. this is something you could do in honestly 10 minutes, i just did it myself about a month ago. breaker will probably run you $115.

I believe you are mistaken. On my Midwest Electric (GE) Spa Panel, that is not true. The GFCE breaker is just another breaker on the same BUSS as the other circuits. It is not between the source wires and the rest of the panel. It does not protect any other circuits but itself. Check your panel, you will find that any other circuits downstream are not protected. Believe me, I was surprised my this too. Maybe your panel is different.

Bottom line, talk to an Electrician if you have any questions,

 

[itsnotrequired]

I believe you are mistaken. On my Midwest Electric (GE) Spa Panel, that is not true. The GFCE breaker is just another breaker on the same BUSS as the other circuits. It is not between the source wires and the rest of the panel. It does not protect any other circuits but itself. Check your panel, you will find that any other circuits downstream are not protected. Believe me, I was surprised my this too. Maybe your panel is different.

Bottom line, talk to an Electrician if you have any questions,

ah, you are referring to spa panels that have spaces for additional circuit breakers. you are correct that these types of panels do exist and operate as you described, folks should be aware of them. however, these are more expensive panels compared to the spa panels that only have a single breaker, often costing more than a stand-alone gfci breaker. most homebrewers going the spa panel route often end up with the eaton panel, which is not expandable but cheaper than buying a stand-alone gfci breaker. it wouldn't make financial sense to buy an expandable spa panel which costs more than a stand-alone gfci circuit breaker, unless that user wanted to take advantage of the 'sub-panel' expandability of the more expensive spa panel. the main reason the spa panel is consider is that the panel is cheaper than the breaker within it!

your statement mentioned only the 240v circuit was protected and implied that any 120v stuff required additional protection (at least, that is how i read it). if two hots and a neutral are brought from the spa panel to the brew panel (off of the load side of the gfci breaker), it is totally possible to have both 240v loads (i.e. heating elements) and 120v loads (i.e. pumps) at the brew panel, all protected by that single two-pole gfci breaker in the spa panel.

 

[ingchr1]

Another option with the spa panel would be to use a plug, vice hardwiring it in. Similar to this:

 

[applescrap]

I want an enclosed receptacle with like 8 feet of cord off of spa panel like an extension cord! He need remove wires in receptacle put in spa panel and go out of spa panel to receptacle i think long cord to receptacle or mount in bix on wall. Or gfci 2 pole in main as others have mentioned which come to think of it thats all he would need to change....for me it would mean no farting around with spa panel but i want main shutoff via spa panel. My spa panel was 87 home depot yet to be installed

 

[applescrap]

This make getting to plug easy no? Not in use wrapped up. Inlie gfci pricey but you get it and youre done

View attachment 1448423976769.jpg

 

[quaboagbrewing]

Another option with the spa panel would be to use a plug, vice hardwiring it in. Similar to this:

View attachment 318459

Actually I really like this option. So I'd plug the Spa Panel into the 14L-30-R outlet and then plug my controller into the spa panel. Seems outside of the GFCI power cord to be the most flexibile option in the event I needed to move the brewing operation to a different location I could just take the spa panel and hook up to a different 240 outlet and be ready to roll.

 

[ingchr1]

Actually I really like this option. So I'd plug the Spa Panel into the 14L-30-R outlet and then plug my controller into the spa panel. Seems outside of the GFCI power cord to be the most flexibile option in the event I needed to move the brewing operation to a different location I could just take the spa panel and hook up to a different 240 outlet and be ready to roll.

Correct, you're basically making a GFCI power cord but using a spa panel to do it. It will probably come in around half the cost or so of a GFCI power cord once you add in the parts you need to make it. The panel itself was ~$60 at either HD or Lowes.

I originally started out by using the spa panel on my dryer receptacle, now I'm making this brew area in my garage.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

ah, you are referring to spa panels that have spaces for additional circuit breakers. you are correct that these types of panels do exist and operate as you described, folks should be aware of them. however, these are more expensive panels compared to the spa panels that only have a single breaker, often costing more than a stand-alone gfci breaker. most homebrewers going the spa panel route often end up with the eaton panel, which is not expandable but cheaper than buying a stand-alone gfci breaker. it wouldn't make financial sense to buy an expandable spa panel which costs more than a stand-alone gfci circuit breaker, unless that user wanted to take advantage of the 'sub-panel' expandability of the more expensive spa panel. the main reason the spa panel is consider is that the panel is cheaper than the breaker within it!

your statement mentioned only the 240v circuit was protected and implied that any 120v stuff required additional protection (at least, that is how i read it). if two hots and a neutral are brought from the spa panel to the brew panel (off of the load side of the gfci breaker), it is totally possible to have both 240v loads (i.e. heating elements) and 120v loads (i.e. pumps) at the brew panel, all protected by that single two-pole gfci breaker in the spa panel.

You are correct. My Midwest Electric panel does have four single breaker slots to add additional circuits. You are also correct about being able to use each half of the 240 circuit as a 120v circuit, within your panel. I am pretty sure code will not allow both 240 and 120 v wall outlets wired from the same 240v breaker as one side could get hot and not trip both sides of a two pole breaker.

With regards to cost, I paid $38 for my panel on e-bay as an open box unit. This is a lot less than a gfci breaker.

I like the idea of the spa panel extension cord mentione in one of the posts. I use a 120v GFCI outlet on the end of an extension cord when I am using my RIMS outside with a portable 120v controller.
.

 

[itsnotrequired]

I am pretty sure code will not allow both 240 and 120 v wall outlets wired from the same 240v breaker as one side could get hot and not trip both sides of a two pole breaker.

the arrangement you describe is actually allowed by code but requires a two-pole circuit breaker (or two adjacent single-pole circuit breakers with a listed handle tie).

 

[Bobby_M]

Sure, a double pole breaker is absolutely suited for an unbalanced load. If either side exceeds the breaker's current, it trips.

 

[quaboagbrewing]

Spoke with the electrician that installed the non-gfci breaker for me last week. He said that he would replace it out with a gfci breaker (no charge for the labor as he was going to be back out this way anyways and said simply switching the breaker was going to be a very quick job). So looks like the breaker goes for about $100 for my square-d panel so looks like I should be in good shape. Now to just figure out what I want to do about a controller.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Sure, a double pole breaker is absolutely suited for an unbalanced load. If either side exceeds the breaker's current, it trips.

You are right. This is done with multi-wired branch circuits. In this case you must use a double pole breaker or two tied together single pole breakers because you are using a 4 wire cable with a shared neutral (i.e 10-3, 12-3 or 14-3 ). Since they are on opposite poles if one trips it must trip the other to protect the neutral. If you wire two 120v circuits this way they both must share the neutrals downstream.

That is also why you can have both 240v and 120v circuits within your brew panels. The four wires are connected in your spa panel to a 240v double poled GFCI breaker. Any circuit tripping in the panel shuts off all circuits, to protect the neutral.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Sure, a double pole breaker is absolutely suited for an unbalanced load. If either side exceeds the breaker's current, it trips.

Bobby M. - You are right.

This is really only done with multi-wired branch circuits, running two circuits on the same wire run. In this case you must use a double pole breaker or two tied together single pole breakers because you are using a 4 wire cable with a shared neutral (i.e 10-3, 12-3 or 14-3 ). Since each half of the breaker is on opposite poles (because every other breaker in your panel is on opposite poles) if one trips, it must trip the other to protect the neutral. If you wire two 120v circuits this way they both must share the neutral downstream. That could be a pain if they aren't close to each other.

This is done by builders to save wire (and labor) on long runs. Wire is more expensive than breakers. Otherwise, you would run separate 12-2 or 14-2 cables on separate breakers. There would be no point to using a double pole breaker and having both circuits be shut down when one trips. In my mind and doing it myself, it's not worth it to save e few dollars on some extra wire.

That is also why you can have both 240v and 120v circuits within your brew panel, plugged into a single 240V circuit. The four wires (2-hots from opposite poles, 1-neutral, 1- ground) are connected in your spa panel to a 240v double poled GFCI breaker. Any circuit tripping in the panel (120v or 240v) shuts off all circuits, to protect the neutral.

I hope this isn't too confusing. I am not an electrician, but I have done a lot of wiring and passed a number of building inspections of my work (you can do electrical on your own property in NE) .

I know Bobby M knows his stuff and have admired his products, so I would listen to him.