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Specz79

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Sorry to post what I’m sure has been asked 100’s of times. I’ve decided that the start of my brewing career will be BIAB, however what is the cons and pro’s of gas v electric? To me gas is easier temp control, but at the cost of propane to heat (5 and 10 gal batches). I have ordered a 15 gal brewing pot and wilsners bag and pulley, what else should I get if this is my primary setup? I have been doing a lot of reading and it seems folks recommend a mill, I plan on purchasing that after I run a batch or two (local shop will milk for a fee). Any gotcha’s or unnecessary things to avoid?
 
I've been using a Corona type grinder. It was less than $30 on ebay and it does the job. The only downside is that I have to power it. It's not a big deal but sometimes I think electric would be nice.

Do you have an immersion chiller?

I'm using propane. Electric would be nice but it would take quite awhile for the cost to pay off vs using a burner and propane.

Temp control is fairly simple. I use a remote temp probe to monitor temps.
 
I use induction and just love it. I brew inside so weather is no concern, and the boil control is incredible. Also all my kettles are insulated because induction is slower then gas up to the boil point. You can't turn them on remotely like a PID controller on a heat stick,so when I'm brewing in the morning I will fill the kettles with water before bed and turn them on a low setting. They have 2 hr timers that shut it off. when I awake it's close to mash in temp. So many ways to skin the cat!
 
The question was about specific pros and cons, but I'll instead contribute a general comment as someone who uses regularly both an electric setup inside (the Grainfather), and a propane setup outside (ported kettle, cooler mash tun, immersion chiller, no pump): I find the pros and cons balance to the point I can't decide which system I like better. Mainly I base my decision where to brew on the weather.
 
Sorry to post what I’m sure has been asked 100’s of times. I’ve decided that the start of my brewing career will be BIAB, however what is the cons and pro’s of gas v electric? To me gas is easier temp control, but at the cost of propane to heat (5 and 10 gal batches). I have ordered a 15 gal brewing pot and wilsners bag and pulley, what else should I get if this is my primary setup? I have been doing a lot of reading and it seems folks recommend a mill, I plan on purchasing that after I run a batch or two (local shop will milk for a fee). Any gotcha’s or unnecessary things to avoid?
I don't BIAB so take that as you need ...
I brewed a few batches on a (nat)gas stove at the old house.
Here we have only electric so it is what it is on that.

Depends on if youre brewing indoors or outdoors. Some guys brew with propane in their driveway. I would think wind would be a great factor while doing that . Also , if you run out of propane your brew day is shot.
I brew indoors and I would say the pro's of electric is you dont have venting to worry about as much as you would with gas(propane) as well as being near combustibles . I find electric is a little bit easier to control temperature . I dont have any high tech controllers nor use pumps. oh , and as long as you paid the electric bill, you should be good to go.

Absolutely, get yourself a mill.

brew on .
 
OK, you asked. :)

To me, when someone says "electric" the only thing that comes to mind is 240v power. You *can* do electric w/ 120v, but that's not where the promise lies. Speed and power are what 240v promises. Assuming you meant 240v, then you have to decide what you intend to do. Good on you for checking for issues related to it.

The biggest issue by far is cost. I brew in my garage; I ran 240v power into it last August and it was not cheap. I did some of the work myself, leaving the hard stuff for an electrician friend of mine to finish.

I bought the 6-gauge wire myself and installed it (with electrician friend's approval). Had to have a buddy help me as stringing that stuff through holes drilled in joists is not easy. IIRC, that wire cost circa $130.

Then a 50-amp or 60-amp circuit breaker in the main box to feed that wire. Can't recall which it was, but not a cheap replacement.

I had to find room in the main box to install that breaker so i was moving stuff around.

Then, once I had that wire terminating in the garage, coming through a rim joist, I had to run it up to a sub-panel. I could have terminated it right in a control panel but if I was going to all the effort to bring 240v to my garage, i was going to allow for other things.

So I bought the subpanel for about....oh, $35 or $40. Installed it then ran the 6 ga wire up into it, then proceeded to run wire from the panel to three applications:

1 30-amp 240v circuit to run the control panel for the BK.
1 20-amp 120v circuit to provide power for my chiller.
1 20-amp 120v circuit to provide power for my RIMS

So I needed 3 circuit breakers to run those from the subpanel. The 20-amp breakers were pretty cheap, each under $10. The 30-amp one, though, I wanted to be a GFCI breaker, and because I have a QO Square-D system, that set me back $103. Ouch.

I put GFCI receptacles on the 20-amp circuits so GFCI is provided at the outlets, not via circuit breaker. Those cost under $10 each as well.

I needed to add 10-ga wire from the subpanel to the outlet for the 240-v control panel, and to the individual 20-amp circuits. Can't recall exactly the price but it would have been around $50 IIRC.

So if you're adding this all up, at this point I'm over $500, including what I paid my friend the electrician (he's not that close a friend :)). That's just to get power to receptacles in the garage.

******

Then I had this problem: how do I run wire from where it terminates in the sub-panel to the places I want to use it? I could go up and inside the attic of the garage, but dismissed that as problematic. I could come down from there inside the walls, but they're insulated, didn't want to disturb that.

So I built some wiring chases. That took time and roughly...maybe $35. I used standard-width boards so I didn't have to rip anything, and some hardboard to cover which I cut on a table saw. You can see that in the pics here, running from the subpanel up to the ceiling, and then down to the receptacles. It's hard to see in the last pic. You can see the penguin chiller (white), and the wiring chase running down next to the window.

brewspacesubpanel.jpg conduit1.jpg conduit2.jpg brewspacechillerconical.jpg

I needed more 120v power in the garage anyway, so this all worked out just fine.

One additional consideration, which you'll see in a pic below....I planned for expansion in that subpanel, not knowing why but just because. Turned out to be a good thing as Menards had 240-v garage heaters after rebate that cost $63. I'm not kidding. Well, it didn't take long for me to realize that I had 240-v power there, so I took some BMX cable and wired it to the heater I hung from the ceiling.

Heat in the garage...who knew? :)

subpanel.jpg garageheater.jpg

And...if I ever get an electric car, I have power in the garage to charge it. :)

***********

3-wire vs 4-wire. If you want to run 120-v applications from the same power source, you need a 4-wire 240v connection. Older 240-v applications were 3-wire, but to provide for 120v, you need a separate neutral wire for that.

Some homebrewers have access to a 240-v receptacle into which they plug their dryer. That's an easy way to gain access to the power without going through all the rigamarole--and cost!--I went through. It may only be a 3-wire though so that needs to be taken into consideration when thinking about a panel to control the power.

My panel allows for not only the 5500w element to be controlled but also two pumps on two different circuits. 4-wire was necessary to do that. Well, there are ways to kludge around this, but not and remain within most electrical codes.

*******

So now I have power, but the costs keep piling up. I needed a control panel and after a lot of dithering and soul-searching, bought a kit from Auber Instruments for use with electric BIAB. I don't do BIAB currently (but I have), but it would be just fine for controlling the boil and the pumps.

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=64_66&products_id=809

I built it myself; they have a table-top version called the "Cube" that's assembled, and you can get the DIY version I bought already assembled, will cost a couple hundred more to do that.

There's a cheaper controller called StillDragon which is also a kit, but it's very elementary. Costs $40 more or less, and only has a potentiometer to control, but it's a very inexpensive way to get where I got for $500.

You also need to add power lines and plugs to all this. In other words, how do you connect from the panel to the element? Or from the 240-v receptacle to the control panel? Those aren't cheap, expect to pay from $50 to $100 for them.

And none of this includes the electrical element in the kettle, the cost of getting a fitting to accommodate it, and perhaps even drilling the kettle.

[Interlude: it now seems like I'm doing everything I can to dissuade you from going electric. Not so, but you asked. There are lots of ways to cut these costs down if you're willing to work at it--dryer receptacle instead of running wiring, a Stilldragon controller, some other ways--but if you're really wanting the excellence of electric brewing, look at all of it. I know costs are an issue--I'm an empty-nester but 15 years ago, no way I could have done any of this. So it all depends.]

Now, all this is predicated on my situation; yours almost certainly is different. It's not to say "this is how to do it," but rather, this is how I did it. It's a consequence of space, resources, access to power, all that stuff.

Maybe, if money is dear, you can do this incrementally, starting with something like a Stilldragon controller and plugging into the dryer outlet (if that would work for you).

If I were to offer one bit of advice: plan for eventually getting to where you want to be, rather than making short-term incremental compromises. I also do powdercoating in my garage, in toaster ovens, and do that above the chiller in front of the window so we can run a box fan as an exhaust. Those toaster ovens chew up a lot of power, so I needed a separate circuit and outlet right there. So I can run the chiller and powdercoating ovens out of the same receptacle, and stop blowing breakers because the garage circuit can't handle it. :)

So...plan for what you want, not necessarily what you can afford right now, and allow yourself the ability to grow into it as time and resources allow.

My 2 cents. Hope that was enough. :) Good luck!
 
Qualifying remarks about my setup, I live in Louisiana (Shreveport) so the weather is decent most of the year. I intend to do most my brewing in my carport, but if the weather is cold I can brew in my shop. I installed a 240 in the shop for my welder and have the ability to drop a line in the carport if I went electric (just would cost me parts and two breakers spots in my service). Propane just seemed simpler to me, don’t think cost would be different since I can do electrical myself. Maybe I should just plan for brewing in the shop, might keep the Mrs. happier also since she likes the carport as a sitting room anyways. Was planning to build a counterflow cooler as they seem easy enough to build. Just spitballing here, thanks for the advice so far. Sounds like a mill will be in my future.
 
...I’ve decided that the start of my brewing career will be BIAB, however what is the cons and pro’s of gas v electric?...

You've made a wise choice, BIAB is a great way to brew. It's also how I started. I've never regretted that decision, nor found a reason strong enough to compel me to brew any other way.

Weather can play a significant role in the gas vs electric decision. I live in the southern US, and we have lots of good weather days. I like to brew outside, so I like the flexibility of propane. I've set up two places I can brew outdoors (one is under a roof for rainy days), and one that is indoor/outdoor (just inside the big dock door of my shop). My favorite place to brew is on my loading dock, out in the open, where I can enjoy the view of the trees and the mountain. I've set up a removable pole there for hoisting my bag.

If I lived up north, the equation would be different, and I'd be more likely to go electric and brew indoors. Once you go indoors you have to have a plan for dealing with the moisture that boiling puts into the air. You'll need a ventilator or condenser to get rid of it. For some locations very simple solutions are possible, for other locations it can be a big expense/hassle.

... I have ordered a 15 gal brewing pot and wilsners bag and pulley, what else should I get if this is my primary setup? I have been doing a lot of reading and it seems folks recommend a mill....

You are off to a great start! A 15gal kettle, a Wilser bag, and an overhead hoist are all great choices.

You do want to have your own grain mill for BIAB. Your efficiency will probably not be that great until you get one. But don't let that stop you from brewing with the grain crush you get from your store. Ask them to grind it twice, and if you want to help your efficiency you can do a sparge. Once you get a mill and start grinding very fine (I use a gap setting of .025") then sparging will become optional. You'll be able to get great efficiency without it.

Fermentation temperature control is important. Make that a priority.

...Any gotcha’s or unnecessary things to avoid?

What is unnecessary for one person is a passion for the next, so any answer to that question is subjective.

For me, I like the elegant simplicity of BIAB. That's one of the main reasons I chose to go that way. Some describe re-circulation pumps, programmable controllers, multiple vessels, etc., as "upgrades". I see them as downgrades from my wonderfully simple and effective single vessel rig.

For other folks, fiddling with that stuff makes them very happy. For some of them it's like they have an automation hobby that also makes beer. Nothing wrong with that. I get it, I also like to design and build things, but I get that itch scratched in other areas of my life.

Think about what makes you happy, and let that guide your decisions. There are lots of different ways to brew, and lots of variations on brew rigs, and they can all make good beer. I don't think you'll stumble into any gotcha's that you can't easily resolve.
 
The ONLY con for electric is initial cost for the 30amp GFCI circuit and controller. After that it is all pro.

I find the cleaning involved during and after the brew day to be more tedious/annoying on my electric setup than on my gas. But since there are a number of configurations of both electric and gas (as well as different facilities and space for cleaning) this may not be the case for some. Or perhaps for some the reverse is true.
 
I find the cleaning involved during and after the brew day to be more tedious/annoying on my electric setup than on my gas. But since there are a number of configurations of both electric and gas (as well as different facilities and space for cleaning) this may not be the case for some. Or perhaps for some the reverse is true.

My experience is exactly opposite. On a gas flame, the heat licking up the sides of the kettle baked the hot break to the sides and I would have to scrub like mad. With an electric kettle, it just wipes off. The element is another thing to clean off but soak, brush, wipe, whatever. It's pretty smooth. If you go down the cleaning rabbit hole, we'll get into a BIAB vs multi-vessel discussion.
 
My experience is exactly opposite. On a gas flame, the heat licking up the sides of the kettle baked the hot break to the sides and I would have to scrub like mad. With an electric kettle, it just wipes off. The element is another thing to clean off but soak, brush, wipe, whatever. It's pretty smooth. If you go down the cleaning rabbit hole, we'll get into a BIAB vs multi-vessel discussion.

Ha, no worries there, as I've done BIAB and don't find the process as enjoyable. So that's off the table for me, even with an easier clean up. Not sure why I don't like it. Just don't.
 
I went from 3 vessel 5 gallon(7gal nominal) rig to a 10+ gallon rig almost instantly. Same amount of time & dishes to do afterwords, 1 vs 2 C kegs of beer, respectively.

Started with gas bayou cookers, nice and simple. Switched to electric after a year, same 1/2 keg kettle rig with elements added, and brewing goes faster, cheaper and quieter than gas. No soot on kettles either.

Once in a while I miss the flame when brewing in the snow, but not much, because a decent electric controller allows you go into the house and warm up and not worry about temps so much.

Your grainfather type rigs are great for apartment brewers and such, but like a bread machine with bread baking, will only get you so far.
 
Ever use a bread machine? I do a couple of times a week. It makes decent fresh bread, but never as good as from a good bread baker.

I'm looking to go further than that with my brewing.
 
Ever use a bread machine? I do a couple of times a week. It makes decent fresh bread, but never as good as from a good bread baker.

I'm looking to go further than that with my brewing.

But I'm wondering what you meant that the grainfather type rig can only get you 'so far'. And I guess now I could ask it in a slightly different way: In what way(s) can you 'go further' with your current setup vs. with a GF?
 
More control of more perimeters. Also more volume, and more work, more space used, etc.

You also know how to brew with other than a beer machine. I wonder if someone starting out that way would gain as deep an understanding of process.

Just my opinion.
 
The volume on the GF is limited to doing 5-6 gallon batches. I do either 5 or 2.5 so that hasn't influenced my indoor/outdoor decision on brew day, but if I do a 5 gallon batch of a real big beer, I'd rather use my outdoor rig than push the limits of the GF (or, if big enough, it could simply be over the limits). Also decoctions are a bit easier outside than on the GF, where I must bring the stovetop into the process.
 
Ok, so what I envisioned of electric brewing was on a hot plate, apparently it’s elements in the pot. I see there are elements designed for different sized brew pots as well as what appears to be water heater type elements. For a DIY type person what are the recommended way to go? I see inkbird Controllers that can be had for reasonable prices, DIY kits, and $500 models. Are some of these “make do” models or is all in the eye of the beholder?
 
Ok, so what I envisioned of electric brewing was on a hot plate, apparently it’s elements in the pot. I see there are elements designed for different sized brew pots as well as what appears to be water heater type elements. For a DIY type person what are the recommended way to go? I see inkbird Controllers that can be had for reasonable prices, DIY kits, and $500 models. Are some of these “make do” models or is all in the eye of the beholder?

Electric brewing can be done on a hot plate, it's just a different external source of heat than propane, e.g.

Some use induction plates, effectively.

Most "electric" brewing is, as you surmised, mostly about elements internal to the boil kettle, and controlled via some sort of panel. BTW, I'm not aware that Inkbird sells controllers for this kind of thing. For fermentation temp control, yes, but not controlling of electric boil elements.

Your question above is fairly broad; might be worth perusing the various threads in the "electric brewing" forum here and seeing what people do (it's varied), and then trying to focus the question a bit.

Part of that should include resource limits. Do you have $500? $2500? That kind of thing has a lot to do with where you go. Further, are you looking for major electric, i.e., 240-volt setups, or just 120-volt? Those are largely synonymous with price, BTW.
 
Hot plate / Induction Burner would be the easiest way to go. The Avantco 3500 is popular here, and it's around $175 or so. Put the kettle on it, turn it on, and it's not much different than propane. I don't have it myself, but I've heard that you get a good (but not vigorous) boil. Heating time might be a little long for a 10 gallon batch, but not much different than a normal propane burner.

Since you're comfortable running your own electric, I assume you could put together your own PID controller. That would probably be a better bet for you. For one thing, you can get a 5500 watt element, which would decrease the heating time and give a better boil for 10 gallon batches. The controller has the other benefit of being able to set your strike temperature, walk away, and know that it'll be the proper temperature when you're ready to brew. With an induction (or propane, for that matter) you have to monitor the temperature as it gets close to strike temperature so that you can turn off the heat source manually.

I'm not as much of a DIYer as you though, so I can't give recommendations on which controller is best for you to put together. There are plenty of threads on cheap PID controller setups though.
 
+1 on using induction. Simple and straightforward.

But 3500W is about the maximum power you can get under $200 (e.g., Avantco IC3500). I use one of those. Getting 5000W induction takes an extra $400.
To use induction your kettle needs to be suitable for it. When a magnet sticks to the bottom it's induction ready. Now some kettles won't stick a magnet, but still work fine with induction (e.g. Polar Ware), others won't.

I prefer the triple ply bottomed kettles for using with induction, less potential for scorching, more even heating.

You'll also need to insulate the kettle for doing 10 gallon batches to reduce heat loss.
If you're in a hurry to heat your strike water you could use an additional electric element at full power, or a heat stick.
 
Some say there are no downsides to electric. As a caveat, let me say that I've never brewed electric, but I've researched the hell out of it trying to find a system that will meet my needs. So far, I've come to the conclusion that an electric BIAB system that would do everything I want would require a PID controllable induction burner. Frankly, I'm shocked no company has done this.

Here's what I want and why existing systems are a problem.

I want fast heating of strike water and quick to boil. Those waiting times are wasted time IMO. I want to be able to do step mashes. I want to be able to brew both low and high gravity batches.

So what are the problems? Well, first of all, step mashes imply circulation and temp control. Quick heat times imply 220V system, the higher the wattage the better (for the most part). Being able to brew both low and high gravity beers implies a fairly large kettle with minimal "dead space" (the space in the kettle that holds wort but is not in direct contact with the grains.

So I ruled out induction as there isn't a 220V induction burner that is PID compatible (must have manual temp control and be enabled when plugged in). There's one that 208 V that some people have used, but I've heard of longevity issues when using at 220V.

So I started looking at units with burner in the kettle. The problem is that there ends up being quite bit of dead space under the burner. If you have a kettle big enough to brew a high gravity stout (say 25 lbs of grain for a 5 gallon batch), it has too much dead space to accommodate a small gravity beer.

So finding a BIAB rig that will do it all is problematic. My current "best plan" is a combo rig that supports eBIAB for small batches, but can be converted into a kettle RIMS rig for high gravity beers.

The ultimate would be a purpose built induction burner that either has feedback based temp control built in or is PID compatible, coupled with a 15G kettle and a mesh basket that has basically no feet or very short (< 1/4" feet). I don't see that happening any time soon.

So at this point, I can't justify dropping cash to run 220 to my garage (since we're currently looking for a new house). We'll see what happens when I move.
 
I think this is what I’m going to go with, it is slightly bigger than my original planned kettle, already has the electrical built in and I am really only concerned with the temperature control for striking and boil since I plan to do the insulation method during mashing. I think dropping a false bottom in it and a recirculater will get me what I want at competitive price point, rather than buying all the parts separately, in one contained unit. A few simple modifications like a different valve and plug will be in order from my research on it, but those are easy mods.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/digiboil-electric-kettle-65l171g-220v.html
 
This is what I was looking at when I said reasonable priced temp controller

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MZ7A21Y/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01MZ7A21Y

I didn't know they sold that. Learned something new today.

While it looks as if you can get a controller for $39.99, that's not the whole kit there. No switches, no internal wiring, no cords to connect to power, no contactors, etc. Not sure what the rest would cost you, nor how to spec it properly, but I'm guessing you're at another $150 to get the whole thing together.

Which, if true, is certainly cheaper than most of the other available options.
 
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