funky smell and taste from S-04?

[amcclai7]

I brewed a rich chocolate malt forward stout on 9/19 and I pitched an old smack pack of Wyeast 1335. Should have made a starter, but was in a rush to brew and 3 1/2 days later there was no sign of fermentation and the gravity was still at the OG mark of 1.058. I Pitched a packet of S-04 on 9/23 and today, 9/28, I checked the gravity and it has reached the anticipated FG of 1.020. However the smell and the taste is somewhat vinegary/funky and the rich chocolately notes are nowhere to be found. I kept the ferementor at 64F the whole time and I always sanitize very well (never had infection issues) It seems as if its one of 3 options:

1. The long lag time allowed some wild yeast to develop.
2. The old dormant 1335 still managed to produce some kind of off-flavor.
3. 5 days isn't long enough to really know how a beer has turned out. (There is still even a small krausen hanging around which I have attached a pic of) English yeasts are always a little funky, give it a little more time and stop freaking out.

Regardless, I think I should let it get up to 70F after a few more days. If its wild yeast, I rather let them have their way and create a sour stout rather than fight them.

If its off flavors from the 1335, maybe the S-04 can clean them up

If its neither than allowing the beer to rise a bit after primary ferm, is usually a good idea.

Any thoughts on where these flavors may be coming from and any recommended courses of action other than what i said?

 

[youreanimpulse]

#3 is true and only time will tell, but both funky and vinegary speak to #1. Give it a normal amount of time (couple weeks) to clear and see then.

 

[lilrokz06]

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[pdxal]

#3, and perhaps #1. Either way, you need to let it ride. 9 days from original pitch, and 5 days from the second pitch is way too early anyway. How old was the 1335 smack pack? Did you check the OG before pitching, or was that calculated? Are you checking gravity with a refractometer?

 

[MXDXD]

If my inexperienced self may help...
I brewed a beer (English IPA) with the exact same OG. At first, I pitched the yeast way too cold (power shortage, couldn't see a damn thing) and I estimate the wort was at 58F. I had already set up a swamp cooler. I let it rise to 61/62 the day after, and I kept it at that way for a week. By then, the active fermentation appeared to be over, so I ramped it again to 65/66.
Some days later, it was dry-hop time... And it basically smelled like a cross of coleslaw, butter and farts.
After the five-days dry-hop, I bottled. The sampler tasted great, and other than the hops being sort of muted (and then again, I might just have been a little conservative), and there wasn't any off-flavor whatsoever. It was slightly fruity in a generic way, but that kind of comes with S-04.

My lesson ? I think I started a little too cold, and that might have meant the yeast needing a little more time, not to mention degrees, to clean off. I don't exclude 1 and 2, but 3 seems likely, in which case, a few more days is the cure.

 

[amcclai7]

#3, and perhaps #1. Either way, you need to let it ride. 9 days from original pitch, and 5 days from the second pitch is way too early anyway. How old was the 1335 smack pack? Did you check the OG before pitching, or was that calculated? Are you checking gravity with a refractometer?

The smack pack was 8 months old, the OG was calculated, not measured. (extract batch so it should have been dead on) I usually check the OG anyway but its almost always within a point or two of anticipated. I check with a hydrometer as close to 68F as I can.

MXDXD, Thanks for the info. That does make me feel better. English yeast does always seem to have a weird funk to it that usually settles out. This one had a bit more than most, but nothing crazy. Hopefully it will be fine.

 

[pdxal]

The smack pack was 8 months old, the OG was calculated, not measured. (extract batch so it should have been dead on) I usually check the OG anyway but its almost always within a point or two of anticipated. I check with a hydrometer as close to 68F as I can.

MXDXD, Thanks for the info. That does make me feel better. English yeast does always seem to have a weird funk to it that usually settles out. This one had a bit more than most, but nothing crazy. Hopefully it will be fine.

No wonder that beer had such a lag time. You underpitched the smack pack yeast by a factor of 20+.
As you said, most things will mellow out with time, just don't be surprised if it doesn't this time.
If it stays funky, but not sour chances are it didn't get infected but your yeast management messed it up too much to clean up.

 

[amcclai7]

I usually never underpitch like that but I was incredibly in the mood to brew that night and I thought it would be fine. I learned my lesson. I'll always keep some quality dried yeast around and brew with that if I don't have time to make a starter.

 

[mbbransc]

I brewed a robust porter on 09/04 fermented with S-04 that came out with some funky wild yeast type flavor. There was no chocolate, coffee, roast, nada. Tasted almost like a Belgian porter would. I told my brew partner it much be infected. He didn't detect any problems with the beer and went ahead and kegged it up. He texted me last night that now that it's kegged, it's awesome. Super creamy, chocolaty with just enough roastedness. I'm not sure if I believe him but I'm going to try it tonight. If it is fine, I'm thinking maybe S-04 takes a bit longer to clean up than what I'm used to.

 

[amcclai7]

I brewed a robust porter on 09/04 fermented with S-04 that came out with some funky wild yeast type flavor. There was no chocolate, coffee, roast, nada. Tasted almost like a Belgian porter would. I told my brew partner it much be infected. He didn't detect any problems with the beer and went ahead and kegged it up. He texted me last night that now that it's kegged, it's awesome. Super creamy, chocolaty with just enough roastedness. I'm not sure if I believe him but I'm going to try it tonight. If it is fine, I'm thinking maybe S-04 takes a bit longer to clean up than what I'm used to.

I'm hoping that's it. I've rarely used it before so I'm not familiar

 

[amcclai7]

Well, I checked again. Its now 9 days after the second pitch of S-04. The stout flavors are starting to come out a bit more and the vinegary smell has dissipated. However, it just seems a bit lifeless. its very thin and lacking in complexity and richness of flavor, even for a non-carbed sample. There is also a little bit of a plasticy thing going on with the aroma and a smidge of it on the taste All I can say is that it has definitely improved, albeit marginally. I've moved it out to 70F temps now and hopefully it will continue to clean up. I might be waiting 3-4 weeks or more on this bad boy, we'll see. I usually wait at least 2.5 weeks before kegging anyway, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

 

[amcclai7]

Alright, the verdict is in. Lacto!! I have never, i repeat never, had an infection before but then again I've never pitched yeast that old before. I guess that 4-5 day lag time let some lacto, or perhaps brett to dig in its heels. It did ferment down to the expected 1.020 via the S-04 but now after 5 weeks in the fermentor the bugs have taken over.

The good news... It tastes great! I like sour beers and dark ones have always been my favorites. It has hints of dark fruit and a wonderful tartness. I could keg it now and be happy with it, but I think another month or so will really start to bring out the funk. The only thing I'm pondering is adding black cherries. I think black cherries would be a nice touch which would compliment the tartness nicely. My question is this, should I add the cherries now or let it sour up for another month or so and then add them? I can see pros and cons to each.

I'll post a pic shortly

 

[youreanimpulse]

I'd let it go for a while, in case there is brett in there. Check gravity over a couple months to know if it's done. Then I'd rack onto cherries.