Fruit addition

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I have a beer fermenting on wild yeast. I intend to add mango puree and a habanero. I've brewed with this yeast before. It is a very slow and steady yeast. Its been two weeks since I pitched and it's still showing signs of activity. Planning on measuring gravity. If everything suggests its still fermenting, should I make sure fermentation is complete before adding fruit? I plan on re-pitching yeast when I add the fruit.
 
personally, i like to wait until primary is completely done before adding fruit. however this isn't a requirement, some folks add fruit during active primary.

I plan on re-pitching yeast when I add the fruit.
how do you plan on doing that? do you have a conical that allows you to drop the yeast first? are you going to rack into secondary and leave the primary yeast cake behind? or will you be adding fruit into primary, and you hope to either separate yeast from fruit sludge later, or you'll just pitch fruit + sludge into your next batch?
 
I'm planning on racking to secondary fermenter. My thoughts are to put the puree in first and rack the beer on top. I top cropped some yeast during primary and built a starter from that which I'll pitch. A web page I read recommended repitching to handle the added sugars from the fruit. A Guide To Blending Sour Beer With Fruit
yes, repitching some sacch when adding fruit makes things go much faster and smoother. brett will eventually wake up and get the job done, but it can take a while... nasty thing can happen in the interim.
 
So. Racked to the puree today. Wondering whether I should give a gentle stir once a week to keep the puree in suspension, or am I just imagining more work than is necessary?
 
So. Racked to the puree today. Wondering whether I should give a gentle stir once a week to keep the puree in suspension, or am I just imagining more work than is necessary?
You don't want it to be too exposed to air as it can develop mold, I don't know about purée but fruit is usually punched down using a kind of tool similar to a potato masher
 
So. Racked to the puree today. Wondering whether I should give a gentle stir once a week to keep the puree in suspension, or am I just imagining more work than is necessary?
what vessel is your brew in? did the puree sink to the bottom?

i wouldn't open up the vessel, but i would swirl, spin and/or gently shake it to ensure there is a some movement in there. if the fruit has risen to the top, you'll want to slosh some beer on top of the fruit so that it doesn't dry out or mold. try to do all of the above without opening the fermenter.
 
I'm using a plastic Big Mouth. I don't think I'm going to need to do any stirring though. I put in 9 lbs of puree with 5 gallons of beer. Going on advice that ranges from 1-2 lbs per gallon. Starting to wonder if that wasn't too heavy handed. Anyway. It started fermenting right away. So much so I've had to keep checking to make sure the blow off tube hadn't come out of my 1 liter flask or strapping down the lid on the Big Mouth. It's now ferementing hard and the fruit puree seems to be rising to the top like krausen!
 
I don't think I'm going to need to do any stirring though.
(...)
It's now ferementing hard and the fruit puree seems to be rising to the top like krausen!
the fruit rising to the top, like krausen, is exactly why you might want to mix/swirl/shake/etc. in wine-making they say the fruit forms a cap, and you need to break the cap to ensure it stays wet, doesn't mold, ferments completely, doesn't trap CO2, etc. it's called "punching down the cap."
 
the fruit rising to the top, like krausen, is exactly why you might want to mix/swirl/shake/etc. in wine-making they say the fruit forms a cap, and you need to break the cap to ensure it stays wet, doesn't mold, ferments completely, doesn't trap CO2, etc. it's called "punching down the cap."

It was very exciting for a moment, but very short lived! For about a day and a half, it looked like the beer was boiling, there was so much carbonation. Then the cap fell. I guess the second pitch of yeast made quick work of the sugars from the fruit. Now the mango puree is sitting on the bottom of the fermenter again, and I've added the habanero. Good to know about the reason for punching down. I would have mistakenly thought it was to keep the fruit in contact with the beer, for flavor purposes. No just trying leave it be and have patience.
 
Hopefully I'm not getting on your nerves. You have provided some good advice. I think I'm set. I'm going to try and have enough patience to let it condition in secondary for 3-4 weeks. I'm assuming that, as its a wild/sour beer with fruit, it would likely be ideal to age longer, but it being my first shot at it, I won't be able to make myself wait much longer than that.

I bottle my beer. Any thoughts on what I should consider in regards to how much priming sugar to use. I'm assuming there's a lot of potential to over carb this batch. The beer is a Belgian pale extract kit. ABV won't be that high, probably between 5-6, depending on how well the yeast attenuates.
 
Hopefully I'm not getting on your nerves. You have provided some good advice. I think I'm set. I'm going to try and have enough patience to let it condition in secondary for 3-4 weeks. I'm assuming that, as its a wild/sour beer with fruit, it would likely be ideal to age longer, but it being my first shot at it, I won't be able to make myself wait much longer than that.

I bottle my beer. Any thoughts on what I should consider in regards to how much priming sugar to use. I'm assuming there's a lot of potential to over carb this batch. The beer is a Belgian pale extract kit. ABV won't be that high, probably between 5-6, depending on how well the yeast attenuates.
Probably it needs at least 3 volumes so you need sturdy bottles if going that high, but IMO, carbonation is more dependent on personal taste, when we brew beer, we have the chance to make it perfect for us, so if you don't like highly carbonated comercial beers, don't do that to yours even if that makes it fall "out of style"

I would personally go for 3'75 which is what I aim for in blond Belgians, going at 3'5 for darker ones
 
Thanks! I was concerned it would be too easy to make bottle bombs. But, I don't mind highly carbonated beers, especially pale sours. The beer that inspired this was "carby" so to speak. I have a bunch of bottles from Westmalle, Orval and Saison DuPont that I imagine will work.
 
Thanks! I was concerned it would be too easy to make bottle bombs. But, I don't mind highly carbonated beers, especially pale sours. The beer that inspired this was "carby" so to speak. I have a bunch of bottles from Westmalle, Orval and Saison DuPont that I imagine will work.
Yep, any of those you mentioned should work as they are originally used for higher volumes than 3, but inspect them in front of a bright light and look for any damage that can compromise them

My bottles for high carb beers can hold up to 9 volumes, but I still check them just in case, you never know
 
Hopefully I'm not getting on your nerves.
i wouldn't be replying if you were :yes:

I'm assuming that, as its a wild/sour beer with fruit, it would likely be ideal to age longer, but it being my first shot at it, I won't be able to make myself wait much longer than that.
3-4 weeks is a decent amount of time for fruit like mango and the vast majority of the flavor has likely been pulled out, although personally i prefer to go 6 to 8 weeks. the milk the funk wiki has some good info on fruiting amounts and suggested contact time (be sure to scroll down to the big table).

I bottle my beer. Any thoughts on what I should consider in regards to how much priming sugar to use. I'm assuming there's a lot of potential to over carb this batch. The beer is a Belgian pale extract kit. ABV won't be that high, probably between 5-6, depending on how well the yeast attenuates.
given that your beer has just finished fermenting the fruit, you should have plenty of residual CO2 in the beer - so proceed with the usual priming sugar calculations. if you're using regular beer bottles, i wouldn't prime much beyond 2.4-2.5. volumes that's a nice, upper-end level of normal carbonation while leaving you a little wiggle room since most bottled are rated to 3.0 volumes. if you have thick glass bottles (ex: champagne bottles, or the kind that most beers from Belgium come in), then you can crank it up higher.
 
So. Slightly off topic. Please feel free to respond to these at your leisure. I've just always been more interested in how yeast affects a beer's character. Now that I've gone down this dark path, I sometimes get so overwhelmed with all the research I do and need help digesting it.

As I understand it, the souring of my beer is brought about by using a yeast that I harvested from one of my favorite beers. The brewery refers to it as being wild. I would say it makes more of a tart beer, than a full on sour. Am I correct in my understanding that the road to sour is varied, as in there's wild yeast, kettle souring using lactobacillus, or pitching lactobacillus and letting that be the primary fermenter with or without brett?

And what is the difference between those and Barrel aging to get sour. I mean I get that the barrel become infected so is that good because it become a reliable source for souring. I see so many pictures where people are trying to determine whether they have a pellicle or an infection. I have never had a pellicle and I've used this wild yeast several times.

BTW, it's funny me how many brewing related words are incorrectly identified as spelling mistakes by the spellchecker this forum uses.
 
So. Slightly off topic. Please feel free to respond to these at your leisure. I've just always been more interested in how yeast affects a beer's character. Now that I've gone down this dark path, I sometimes get so overwhelmed with all the research I do and need help digesting it.

As I understand it, the souring of my beer is brought about by using a yeast that I harvested from one of my favorite beers. The brewery refers to it as being wild. I would say it makes more of a tart beer, than a full on sour. Am I correct in my understanding that the road to sour is varied, as in there's wild yeast, kettle souring using lactobacillus, or pitching lactobacillus and letting that be the primary fermenter with or without brett?

And what is the difference between those and Barrel aging to get sour. I mean I get that the barrel become infected so is that good because it become a reliable source for souring. I see so many pictures where people are trying to determine whether they have a pellicle or an infection. I have never had a pellicle and I've used this wild yeast several times.

BTW, it's funny me how many brewing related words are incorrectly identified as spelling mistakes by the spellchecker this forum uses.
If you relay on the barrel for souring, yes, you need to have a colony of souring bacteria living there, otherwise it won't sour just because it's in wood, although beers with brett will become acetic if exposed to oxigen

In lambic they relay on pediococus to do the souring, they use aged hops to inhibit lacto and leave only pedio although some lacto is still present in some beers, I mean, there's like 80 different things in there

You can use modern methods (kettle sour, modern souring, etc) or mixed ferm where you let things do their job at their time and pace, it will be slower but it gives a more complex product
 
As I understand it, the souring of my beer is brought about by using a yeast that I harvested from one of my favorite beers. The brewery refers to it as being wild. I would say it makes more of a tart beer, than a full on sour. Am I correct in my understanding that the road to sour is varied, as in there's wild yeast, kettle souring using lactobacillus, or pitching lactobacillus and letting that be the primary fermenter with or without brett?
lots to cover there... a regular, clean, non-sour beer is made with only one microbe, either saccharomyces cerevisiae (ales) or saccharomyces pastorianus (lagers). sour or tart beers ("tart" just means mildly sour) involved the inclusion of a lactic acid bacteria ("LAB") such as lactobacillus or pediococcus. you'll also hear the term "funky" (or "horse blanket", or "goat", or "barnyard") thrown around, those flavors are the result of brettanomyces, a yeast (not bacteria) that is often referred to as "wild". there are other yeasts that also fall under "wild" but brett is by far the most common.

you are absolutely correct in saying that there are many ways to make a sour. you can do it with lacto only, and that can be done relatively quickly (ex: a kettle sour). if you use pedio, you need to use brett as well since pedio can product diacetyl and brett is required to clean that up. pedio and brett are generally slower-acting, so once you add those you are typically talking about months before the beer is ready.

And what is the difference between those and Barrel aging to get sour. I mean I get that the barrel become infected so is that good because it become a reliable source for souring.
quick-soured beers that use only lacto are, in my opinion, single-note beers. they have lactic acid and that's about it. giving the beer a few months with brett and other microbes results in a much more complex and interesting beer, IMO. you don't need to use a barrel - the beer can age just fine in a carboy, or any other vessel. barrels are convenient and plentiful, but they are not required. if you want to carry over bugs from one carboy to the next, toss in some oak cubes, chips or spirals then use those on subsequent beers.

so, to answer your question, quick-soured beers are, well, quick and (relatively) less interesting - that's certainly not to say that they aren't tasty. long-aged sour beers with a variety of bugs are more complex and many more flavors can be achieved, but the timeline is longer - months/years instead of days/weeks.

I see so many pictures where people are trying to determine whether they have a pellicle or an infection. I have never had a pellicle and I've used this wild yeast several times.
a pellicle merely indicated the presence of oxygen and pellicle-forming bugs (like brett). if you haven't experienced pellicles, it's either because there is no oxygen in your aging vessel (congrats!), you don't have pellicle-forming bugs in there, and/or sufficient time hadn't elapsed to form a pellicle.

what beer is your "wild yeast" from?

BTW, it's funny me how many brewing related words are incorrectly identified as spelling mistakes by the spellchecker this forum uses.
nit-pick: this forum doesn't use a spell-check, it's your browser that has one :D
 
Looks like I spoke too soon about never having had a pellicle! Got a bit of one now. Been watching to make sure there's no mold. I assume with top cropping yeast, racking on top of the fruit and later adding a habanero, it was bound to happen. How do I manage it, in regard to sampling and bottling? Do I need to get a thief to get a sample from below the pellicle? When bottling, do I just make sure the siphon stays below the pellicle when I transfer to a bottling carboy?

Regarding the yeast, the beer is (was) Relic, from a brewery called Draai Laag, from Pittsburgh. The brewery changed its name. They are now Strange Roots. The label says they harvested the yeast from the sealing wax of a 17th century piece of furniture from a French Monastery.
 
You can use modern methods (kettle sour, modern souring, etc) or mixed ferm where you let things do their job at their time and pace, it will be slower but it gives a more complex product

I've done a kettle sour. It was an extract clone of Duchesse De Bourgogne. I agree. It was very sour, but lacked complexity. At some point, I would like to brew something along the lines of the dark funky saisons, like the Mad Fermentationist. First I have to make the leap from extract to all grain.
 
I've done a kettle sour. It was an extract clone of Duchesse De Bourgogne. I agree. It was very sour, but lacked complexity. At some point, I would like to brew something along the lines of the dark funky saisons, like the Mad Fermentationist. First I have to make the leap from extract to all grain.
Duchesse de Bourgogne and other Flanders Red Ales rely on the acetic produced by Brett too, which gives them complexity, they are aged on wood for a while and then they are mixed with a younger beer that has been a bit on wood too and pasteurized to keep the same level of sweetness to sourness

Everything adds complexity and probably an all grain version would be more complex too
 
How do I manage it, in regard to sampling and bottling? Do I need to get a thief to get a sample from below the pellicle? When bottling, do I just make sure the siphon stays below the pellicle when I transfer to a bottling carboy?
so my advice goes against what others might say, but: don't sample. leave the dang beer alone, give it a year, and taste at bottling time: if it's bad dump it, otherwise package. tasting along the way is good if you can do it safely and without oxidizing the beer. if you can't do it safely, then you're better off not doing it at all. the benefits of tracking the beer's development are not greater than the risks of ruining the beer, IMO. trust the bugs, they know what they're doing.

when packing time does come around, and the beer tastes good, don't worry about the pellicle. if you suck it up with your racking cane, it'll break down into a billion piece. a pellicle is powdery and fragile.

First I have to make the leap from extract to all grain.
no you don't. you can make very good sour beer with extracts. the bugs provide such a strong flavor that the underlying beer isn't as important as with other styles. it's not to say that going all-grain doesn't have the potential to kick things up a notch in terms of quality, and is cheaper than using extracts, but personally i wouldn't hold off on brewing another sour just because you're not doing all-grain yet. given how long it takes a sour to age and develop, i'd get going sooner rather than later. the trick to brewing sour beer is having a pipeline: get a few batches going, each offset by a few months + brew a new batch each time you package an older one = endless supply of funk.
 
Sorry bout that, hit the enter button before I was done. Anyway. I will leave it be. Can't say I intended this one to age for that long. I do want to get to the point where I'm brewing enough that I can put some away and leave them be.

As far as extract vs all grain, that make sense. I have been using Belgian blonde kits, to focus more on how the wild yeast plays out. My next trick I have up my sleeve is a smoked chipotle stout. I have sweet cherries from my trees. I harvested yeast from the cherries that I plan on using and then racking it onto the sweet cherries. Maybe that one will be the one I age for a while.
 
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