freezing mead

[rstanavech]

I'm thinking of freezing a small batch of mead, much like hard cider. The plan is to put in to clear sanitized 2 liter bottles for 24 hours, remove from freezer and turn upside down over a sanitized jar until the color is gone from the ice. question is, what the product be called?

 

[Beerbrothas]

I would call it Awesome. Might not be legal but sure is fun. I have heard of apple wine being frozen and called apple jack?

 

[Bluespark]

Freeze concentrating is legal

 

[rstanavech]

I know if mead is ran through a still it would be honeyshine.

Freeze concentration is a form of distilling from what i understand. And well.....

 

[TyTanium]

Freeze concentration is a form of distilling from what i understand. And well.....

A legal form, according to the government. That's enough for me.

 

[ACbrewer]

A legal form, according to the government. That's enough for me.

I'm not trying to get into a legal fight here. I thought I'd read at the TTB website that distillation included any concentration of the alcohol and that was only allowed under a liscensed permit. I strongly recomend that you take a look at the TTB site and until you find it explicity exempts freezing assume that it is not legal with out paperwork.

If you find that, please post the link. and I 've found second hand sources saying it is ok, but on something like this I personally require original sourcing.


BTW, the name should be 'honeyjack'

 

[TyTanium]

I'm not trying to get into a legal fight here. I thought I'd read at the TTB website that distillation included any concentration of the alcohol and that was only allowed under a liscensed permit. I strongly recomend that you take a look at the TTB site and until you find it explicity exempts freezing assume that it is not legal with out paperwork.

If you find that, please post the link. and I 've found second hand sources saying it is ok, but on something like this I personally require original sourcing.


BTW, the name should be 'honeyjack'

Interesting. Agree on the name.

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

If you look into the original ATF ruling 94-3 and all the sub-categories, then the definitions and stuff in 27 CFR 7.24, 25.11, 25.261, and 25.263, it clarifies why it's not considered the same as distillation. While it mainly pertains to beer it explains that the process of freezing and removing ice crystals as a form of concentration doesn't change the original "basic character" like traditional distillation does. This gives the legal loophole to those that want to try "freeze distillation" which more accurately is called fractional freezing....

Dunno if this satisfies anyone curiosity or questions, or if someone else has better information, just thought I'd add this to the debate.

 

[huesmann]

Are you going to get a tasty product out of freeze concentrating?

 

[ACbrewer]

If you look into the original ATF ruling 94-3 and all the sub-categories, then the definitions and stuff in 27 CFR 7.24, 25.11, 25.261, and 25.263, it clarifies why it's not considered the same as distillation. While it mainly pertains to beer it explains that the process of freezing and removing ice crystals as a form of concentration doesn't change the original "basic character" like traditional distillation does. This gives the legal loophole to those that want to try "freeze distillation" which more accurately is called fractional freezing....

Dunno if this satisfies anyone curiosity or questions, or if someone else has better information, just thought I'd add this to the debate.

Thanks, that is the sort of info I was looking for. Also found out that wine (which mead is considered a wine) must have atleast 7% abv but not more than 24%. No similar restriction is imposed on beer.

 

[djamp1983]

I'm so going to do this with one of my upcoming batches. I'm curious to find out the ratio of product to waste this will come up with.

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

Are you going to get a tasty product out of freeze concentrating?

I think you could, but you would have to plan the recipe pretty carefully, know what you want your end product to taste like then formulate it to be near dry and have a milder or weaker flavor pre-freezing, that way when it concentrates it doesnt become cloying and insipid. Something like a jaom I would imagine would become like cough syrup when concentrated but a 1.015 traditional clover mead could become a decent dessert sipper.

Or it could all taste like crap and be ok to get hammered with as a mixer

 

[rstanavech]

I froze just under a gallon and resulted about 3/4 of a 2 liter bottle full.

I didn't plan on freezing it. It was kind of a last minute thing. But after having several people sample it, they all said it was really good. Sweet with a pleasant after warmth. Not too much of a bite but definitely alcoholic.

 

[gayleygoo]

would that make a sort of honey liqueur drink? added to cream and spices it could make something like a honey Irish cream drink.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I know if mead is ran through a still it would be honeyshine.

Freeze concentration is a form of distilling from what i understand. And well.....

It's a legal gray area. The site admin has decided to allow its discussion and prefers the terminology, "freeze concentration." If you'd like to explore the legal debate further, please take that discussion to another thread and let this be a technical discussion of the process and its results.

 

[EndlessPurple]

The technical discussion of the process would be interesting to hear. You just freeze the container and then pour out what? I am guessing the concentrated liquid that has a lower freezing temp.

Does the excess water seperate out at one time or is this a process that is done over and over removing a little water at a time?

Does it work with non-alcoholic drinks (obviously not water)? I know you can steam out the water when cooking for a concentrated liquid, but cold would be an interesting alternative for beverages.

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

The technical discussion of the process would be interesting to hear. You just freeze the container and then pour out what? I am guessing the concentrated liquid that has a lower freezing temp.

Does the excess water seperate out at one time or is this a process that is done over and over removing a little water at a time?

Does it work with non-alcoholic drinks (obviously not water)? I know you can steam out the water when cooking for a concentrated liquid, but cold would be an interesting alternative for beverages.

Fractional freezing, which is one of the more technical terms for freeze concentrating (kinda sounds cooler too) can be done a couple of ways. The most common is litterally just throwing your base liquid in the freezer and every 24 hours or so taking it out and letting it pour into another container, letting it drip until the ice starts dripping clear liquid, then discard the ice and do it again. That'll work but it's inefficient, labor intensive and just sounds like a pain in the a$$.

The other commonly used method requires watching it a little more closely and is easiest if a bucket is used. every 8-12 hours after the brew is chilled enough to form ice crystals, a sanitized (yeah even at this stage i'd be a sanitizer junky) slotted spoon, is used to scoop any ice crystals off the surface and discard them.

I'm sure there are other methods, these are just two that have been explained to me. the second the common procedure for ice beers.

as far as the abv change....A good friend and biochem guy told me he isn't sure if reduction directly corrilates with increased abv. My simple mind thinks if you reduce in half it should double it. He said that may not be the case, and would have to look at some numbers and think about it. Then spouted out a bunch of big words above my simple medical pay grade and said he would get back to me

 

[Unferth]

I'm making some applejack currently. It isn't quite so complicated as all that. I made one gallon of cider, put it in a milk jug, threw it in the freezer for 24 hrs, cut off the jug and stuck the ice over a colander to drain in the freezer.

I like the honey jack idea, might give it a shot.

 

[ACbrewer]

Fractional freezing, which is one of the more technical terms for freeze concentrating

I'm sure there are other methods, these are just two that have been explained to me. the second the common procedure for ice beers.

as far as the abv change....A good friend and biochem guy told me he isn't sure if reduction directly corrilates with increased abv. My simple mind thinks if you reduce in half it should double it. He said that may not be the case, and would have to look at some numbers and think about it. Then spouted out a bunch of big words above my simple medical pay grade and said he would get back to me

Yeah for a straight reasoning, if you reduce the water by 1/2 but keep the amount of alcohol the same, it should double ABV, I can see this not happening because some alcohol might get trapped in the ice.

 

[nitack]

Yeah for a straight reasoning, if you reduce the water by 1/2 but keep the amount of alcohol the same, it should double ABV, I can see this not happening because some alcohol might get trapped in the ice.

Since we're talking numbers here we should be more precise. It it not about reducing water by half, it is about reducing total volume by half. The alcohol shouldn't freeze, so assuming you don't have any trapped in the ice, then yes halving the total volume should double the ABV.

 

[Unferth]

I'm giving this a go tonight. I just threw some clover honey, AJ concentrate, and water in a gallon jug. og 1.14, pitched ec1118.

 

[xjbobbin82]

I'm curious as to if anyone has ever experimented with aging the product before freeze concentrating. Would one yield a tastier end product by aging first, or can it be done soon after fermentation has finished and still produce a nice drinkable beverage?

 

[mike_in_ak]

I'm not trying to get into a legal fight here. I thought I'd read at the TTB website that distillation included any concentration of the alcohol and that was only allowed under a liscensed permit. I strongly recomend that you take a look at the TTB site and until you find it explicity exempts freezing assume that it is not legal with out paperwork.

If you find that, please post the link. and I 've found second hand sources saying it is ok, but on something like this I personally require original sourcing.

BTW, the name should be 'honeyjack'

There are about a million and a half post on HBT about it. It would only require you doing a very simple search.

 

[ACbrewer]

There are about a million and a half post on HBT about it. It would only require you doing a very simple search.

I did do that, and was unsatisfied because I was finding no original sourcing (ie citing of TTB regs/US code #).
Someone did post the relative TTB code location in this thread. HBT is a 2ndary source, the TTB code isn't. When it comes to legal things, I atleast would want to read original source, and not someones thoughts on it, unless they were a lawyer. /rant

 

[ACbrewer]

Since we're talking numbers here we should be more precise. It it not about reducing water by half, it is about reducing total volume by half. The alcohol shouldn't freeze, so assuming you don't have any trapped in the ice, then yes halving the total volume should double the ABV.

yeah I was being quick in my typeing, removing 1/2 gallon(64oz) of water from 1 gallon of mead is not the same as removing 1/2 the water (which is probably around 57oz assuming about 10% abv and V=128 oz).

I think in round numbers if you reduced the volume by 1/2 guessing that the abv did a x2 is going to be close (+/- 10%?) until someone as an actual formula. And even then I think a test of the tossed ice to be sure it was just water and had no alcohol in it woudl be needed. >shrugg<

I'm interested more in the results someone gets.

 

[rstanavech]

Ok, I'm not a numbers guy. In fact math an I don't get along very well. What i do know is this .... I put aprox. 3.5 liters of mead into 2 2liter bottles and after melting it over a bowl for an hour and a half there was a nice big lump of water in the bottle. In the bowl there was a nice amber brown liquid the tasted very sweet and smooth. The alcohol content seemed stronger the original state. Since you are concentrating flavors it would stand to reason that the ABV would go up. I guess you'd have to take readings before and after freezing.

I do have a question though, what is the TTB? I did a search and came up with some wine makers group.

 

[tinman1]

Never done one of my meads. Did brew an Eisbock last year-froze 25%. Resulted in a very tasty 10% ABV bock. Mouthfeel was a little thin- would try a ^ mash temp next time. Was supposed to bring out more hop presence, but really it was like they disappeared altogether.

 

[Enf0rc3r]

On a side note, in the finger lakes region, they make ice wine. They harvest the grapes in the middle of the night while they're frozen. Make for some syrupy dessert wine.

 

[ACbrewer]

I do have a question though, what is the TTB? I did a search and came up with some wine makers group.

TTB is Treasury and Tax Bureau? or is that Tax and Treasury Bureau? It is something like that, they either are part of, or own the IRS, and also same way own BAFTE. Basically the leagal devision of Treasury responsible for (amoung other things) enforcement of the Acohol laws for the Federal Gov't.
see http://www.ttb.gov/ for a better description, as mine is probably off a little.
from their site
"Who We Are - The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) is the newest bureau under the Department of the Treasury. "

 

[ACbrewer]

On a side note, in the finger lakes region, they make ice wine. They harvest the grapes in the middle of the night while they're frozen. Make for some syrupy dessert wine.

Yeah this is different. What is happening there, is water remove before fermentation. What fractional freezing does is water remove after fermenation. BTW, ice wines originated in northern Germany, and in Quebec, they do 'ice cider' where they freeze apple juice, discard about 80% of the volume (primarily water ice, with I'd imagine some impurities) and then ferment the rest.

Ice wine(cider) shoudl make a sweet desert wine. Fractional freezing should make a wine that is stronger, but not nescesarily as sweet as ice wine. - note I've no idea since I've not done this.

From what I've read about yeast, the result of the fermenation is influenced by the sugar concentration at the start. So a 1.080 grav will give a different flavor than a 1.160 grav, even if both are watered down or concentrated to the same ABV in the end. Thus the order of the steps matter. But again, not something I've verified for myself by trying. (in Joy of Homebrewing, this is alluded to by the 'quarter bock' beer)