France smoking ban......WTF?!?

[Seabee John]

I was about to go off on another rant... because some of what has been said is so socialist it would make hillary blush. But it's 6:07 am and it's brewday. Time for brewing not stewing... hey that rhymes. So you all have a fine day trying to argue about things you'll never budge on and I'm gunna go brew beer. Starting in about an hour. So lets for the sake of my brew day prayer agree that beer is wonderful and that we ALL, (Regardless of political persuasion, color, religion, sexual pref, ect) should have the good fortune of a great brew on brew day! Can anyone get behind me on that?

 

[sAvAgE]

Up here in the Great White north I am in Alberta. Even though I am a smoker I just wish that instead of *****footing around on the subject, (Raise Smoke prices, ban from public places, ) just get it over with and make smokes illegal,

oh yeah they cant do that because they make too much money on it

 

[EvilTOJ]

I have nothing useful to add to the conversation, so I'm going for the comedy option; You know who else invoked Godwin's Law? That's right, Hitler did!

 

[the_bird]

You're spending what? Twenty, thirty dollars a week on cigarettes....Fifty-three dollars. Would you pay someone that much money every week to kill you? Because that's what you're doing now, by paying for the so-called privilege to smoke!


....It's that kind of mentality that allows this cancer-producing industry to thrive. Of course we're all going to die someday, but do we have to pay for it? Do we actually have to throw hard-earned dollars on a counter and say, "Please, please, Mr. Merchant of Death, sir; please sell me something that will give me bad breath, stink up my clothes, and fry my lungs.

....Of course it's not [that easy to quit]; not when you have people like this mindless cretin so happy and willing to sell you nails for your coffin....Now he's going to launch into his rap about how he's just doing his job; following orders. Friends, let me tell you about another bunch of hate mongers that were just following orders; they were called Nazis, and they practically wiped a nation of people from the Earth...just like cigarettes are doing now!

Why don't you try some Chewlies Gum instead?

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

I am a non-smoker who also hopes that those who smoke will see the light and decide to quit.

Yet, I am vehemently against government interfering with the rights of private business owners. Owners of bars and restaurants should be allowed to decide whether to allow smoking in their establishments.

When I hear a statement such as "there is nothing worse than sitting down in a nice restaurant to an excellent meal and then having some a-hole light up at the table right next to me" I say that they are missing the obvious. Don't go to that restaurant then.

Customers will vote with their feet and their pocket books. Restaurant owners will figure out what their customers want and then adjust their policies accordingly.

 

[menschmaschine]

Slight rant follows...

As a cigar enthusiast and one-a-day cigar smoker, I'll have to kick in here. I completely understand why the average person out there does not like the smell of tobacco smoke. I personally don't like the smell of cigarette smoke. I think that smoking tobacco will eventually be a thing of the past... or at most, something that few do (like homebrewing). However, I believe the current smoking laws were started on a bad note.

-The current laws regarding "banning" smoking were started to prevent injury to workers. This should have fallen (in the US) under OSHA and NIOSH and exposure limits should have been formulated through scientific research just like every other hazardous substance workers are exposed to.

-There are definitely 2 sides of the argument for how dangerous 2nd hand smoke is. I won't state either side here, but remember that each side has an agenda and is probably skewed at least a little bit to meet that agenda. On one hand environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) isn't harmless, but the statistics created to ban it are questionable as well. Combustion engine exhaust has loads of carcinogens too. One thing is definite though... ETS bothers people with asthma, hypersensitivity, etc and... it is ANNOYING to non-smokers!

-So why were lawmakers so sly about creating these laws on the pretence that they were to protect workers? The real reason is that ETS bothers non-smokers. What's so wrong with just saying that and creating appropriate laws to restrict it? What I think they should have done is create exposure limits with the involvement of various government entities (EPA, CDC, OSHA, NIOSH, ACGIH, etc.). Facilities that can meet certain criteria and be within the exposure limits through ventilation, etc. should be allowed to have smoking. The expense of some of these filtration systems is so high that very few restaurants, bars, etc. would be able to allow smoking. But at least tobacconists and cigar bars could stay open. For anyone doubting the efficacy of filtration systems, go to the Mahogany Room above Holts in Philadelphia. They have the best filtration system I've seen and I've seen that place with 15 guys smoking cigars and you couldn't even smell it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

PS: Making analogies to Hitler and the Nazis to try to justify a cause is played... so played!
PPS: Many people lump all forms of tobacco in with cigarettes (after watching Modern Marvels I learned that modern-day cigarettes are only about 40% tobacco). There are many (sort of) tobacco hobbyists who use tobacco in moderacy. Pipe and cigar smokers are the majority of these. There are a lot of forums out there discussing various cigars and pipe tobaccos. Not that I bothered looking, but I don't think there are many forums out there discussing nuances and subleties of different cigarettes. I've never seen anyone "jonesing" for a fine handmade cigar.

 

[bobjenkins79]

I won't pretend to be as well educated or intelligent as most of the rest of you, but I will bring up one point: Regardless of of my location, be it work, school, home, the grocery store etc, if I have to bust some ass, (see definition farting), it is very widely understood that I should go outside to do it. I don't understand why the same courtesy is so hard to understand concerning 2nd hand smoke.

(It's not like I'm bonging farts into their lungs via a tracheostomy tube)

Bob's friend, "Mind if I smoke?"
Bob "Mind if I fart?"

And I've never really gotten the whole "exhaust-emissions" comparison. Unless you're wrapping your lips around the exhaust pipe Jenna Jameson style while someone stands on the gas pedal, it's probably not a very good comparison.

Then there's the subject of hypocrisy. How f'd up is it for a 325 lb fatass to stuff his/her face full of gravy fries while lecturing a smoker on "all the damage you're doing to your body w/ those cigarettes?" Hey a$$hole, do you know what you're doing to your body with that spoon?

I'm not here to lecture anyone, but I will say that I've worked in healthcare for a while now, and cigarettes do some pretty nasty stuff to people. Scary, horrible stuff. A lot of it seems to happen overnight too, like one day you're fine and the next day you're screwed. If you can quit, quit.

I guess I should just go ahead and confess I love farting in walmart:cross: I call it crop dusting, and it's a great time.

 

[Chriso]

I LOVE crop dusting! Let 'er squeak, and walk away indiscreetly so that you can observe from afar! The only thing I love more is gravy fries. Mmmm.

 

[skinfiddler]

Kind of on a side note: France is really "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." The French have more pressing cultural /social problem going on than smoking in public. There is a growing cancer there that they obviously don't have enough sack to take care of.

They will likely be the first country of what will be Eurabia. They will wish they could take a smoke.

JW

 

[Seabee John]

Kind of on a side note: France is really "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." The French have more pressing cultural /social problem going on than smoking in public. There is a growing cancer there that they obviously don't have enough sack to take care of.

They will likely be the first country of what will be Eurabia. They will wish they could take a smoke.

JW

OUT- Freaking-STANDING!! Someone get's it. There is a far greater threat looming on the horizon. When a war breaks out, as a soldier I clean and oil my weapon... for the sake of saving my skin. France has let their weapon rust (metaphorically speaking.) We as Americans must push back the thought police and those who would ban our freedoms... that is how we "clean and oil"

After my weapon in clean and oiled, I go to the range and practice (also to save my skin)... we as American should go to the range (Metaphorically again) by selling freedom and democracy to the rest of the world. This is the only way we avoid war... well that and having more nukes than anyone else... but that's another thread

again...just ranting

 

[bobjenkins79]

I agree totally. To keep the peace we must prepare for war.

 

[EdWort]

[SIZE=-1]"We sleep safely in our beds at night because a few rough men stand ready to do violence in our behalf." George Orwell[/SIZE]

 

[menschmaschine]

They will likely be the first country of what will be Eurabia. They will wish they could take a smoke.

JW

I see what you're saying, but I don't know about that. They always seem to squeak by somehow and still come out ahead (after the rest of the industrialized world bails them out). That's what makes France so annoying.

 

[bobjenkins79]

I don't think you can even officially have a war until France surrenders.

 

[menschmaschine]

I don't think you can even officially have a war until France surrenders.

Good one.

And by the way... all of this French-bashing pales in comparison the America-bashing one hears in France. Here we just do this kind of thing on internet forums and blogs. In France, they bash America on national television!

 

[dantodd]

ROFLMAO! What a great analogy! I guess I would have to light up a stogie or **** my pants too if I were to hang out with you. Kinda like everyone has to eat garlic so no one smell it.

Actually; in the USA there is a right to smell like you just shat your pants and the people you bother have no recourse, in public libraries anyway. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/21/nyregion/21homeless.html

 

[bobjenkins79]

In France, they bash America on national television!

Let frenchie try that $hit here in Missouri.

 

[bobjenkins79]

Actually; in the USA there is a right to smell like you just shat your pants and the people you bother have no recourse, in public libraries anyway. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/21/nyregion/21homeless.html

I just read that whole article. What a load. Social justice my hairy ass. It's absolutely shameful that sort of thing is allowed to happen in America.

Along the same genre of BS, my father, who served 20 years in the US Air Force, was reprimanded at work recently for eating tuna fish at lunch because the smell was "disturbing to his co-workers". I might add he works w/ a woman who has a doctor's note to fart at work.

Excuse me, i have to go outside to fart and eat tuna fish.

 

[skinfiddler]

I see what you're saying, but I don't know about that. They always seem to squeak by somehow and still come out ahead (after the rest of the industrialized world bails them out). That's what makes France so annoying.

The situation in France is unprecedented in Western Civilization and will hopfully teach us something. Never has an enemy been invited in in such numbers. France is hip-deep in an enemy who's culture (defined by their reigion) does not permit them to believe that freedom is a precondition of virtue. That culture is incompatable with Western ideals- something France had at one time.

My hope is that the US would embark on a massive project to remove our fallen from French soil and leave France to it next time.

JW

 

[dantodd]

I might add he works w/ a woman who has a doctor's note to fart at work.

Does she also have a Dr.'s note to light them? Or is that contrary to the smoking ban?

 

[WortMonger]

Hey, anyone interested in some French rifles? I think they have them from numerous wars and they all say the same thing on the box. "French weapons of war..... only fired, and dropped once!" If it weren't for the Tommies and the Dough-Boys they'd be sprechen des Deutschen.

 

[menschmaschine]

The situation in France is unprecedented in Western Civilization and will hopfully teach us something. Never has an enemy been invited in in such numbers. France is hip-deep in an enemy who's culture (defined by their reigion) does not permit them to believe that freedom is a precondition of virtue. That culture is incompatable with Western ideals- something France had at one time.

My hope is that the US would embark on a massive project to remove our fallen from French soil and leave France to it next time.

JW

I hear you. History will tell. Note to France: Thanks for the Statue of Liberty. We're not perfect, but we've done our best to use it well. Do you need it back? If it would help, we could let you borrow it for a little while. You could put it on top of the U-Boat pens at Lorient.

 

[EdWort]

An officer in the U.S. Naval reserve was attending a conference that included admirals from both the U.S. Navy and the French Navy. At a cocktail reception, he found himself in a small group that included personnel from both navies. The French admiral started complaining that whereas Europeans learned many languages, Americans learned only English. He then asked: "Why is it that we have to speak English in these conferences rather than you speak French?" Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied: "Maybe it's because the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Americans arranged it so you would not have to speak in German."

 

[skinfiddler]

I hear you. History will tell. Note to France: Thanks for the Statue of Liberty. We're not perfect, but we've done our best to use it well. Do you need it back? If it would help, we could let you borrow it for a little while. You could put it on top of the U-Boat pens at Lorient.

I don't recall the name of the particular pens but I heard about the U-Boat pens first-hand from my Dad who was with some of the first GIs to go through and secure them. He said they were very impressive structures- bomb-proof reinforced concrete(pre-bunker-busters), secret passages and huge rooms for lifting the subs (with cranes) out on to repair cradles.

 

[WortMonger]

An officer in the U.S. Naval reserve was attending a conference that included admirals from both the U.S. Navy and the French Navy. At a cocktail reception, he found himself in a small group that included personnel from both navies. The French admiral started complaining that whereas Europeans learned many languages, Americans learned only English. He then asked: "Why is it that we have to speak English in these conferences rather than you speak French?" Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied: "Maybe it's because the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Americans arranged it so you would not have to speak in German."

Hazaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

 

[menschmaschine]

I don't recall the name of the particular pens but I heard about the U-Boat pens first-hand from my Dad who was with some of the first GIs to go through and secure them. He said they were very impressive structures- bomb-proof reinforced concrete(pre-bunker-busters), secret passages and huge rooms for lifting the subs (with cranes) out on to repair cradles.

Yeah, even the bunker-busters didn't do much damage.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i'm a smoker...a few a night and more when i'm drinking.

in california you have to smoke 20 ft away from any vents or windows.

they do allow smoking in smoke shops. also outdoor restaurants...even some bars allow it under certain circumstances (i think it has to be private owned or something.)

in iowa, where i grew up, you could smoke anywhere. I passed around cigars at a pizza joint for my 18th birthday. there is still no law. however, almost all the restaurants have banned smoking inside. they didn't NEED the law, they changed their policy based on popular opinion.

regardless, i don't have a problem anywhere. there's no reason i SHOULD be able to smoke indoors if the establishment doesn't want it. i enjoy a smoke after dinner if i'm in a smoking restaurant. i smoke 20 ft away from the door when i'm at a bar in oakland.

i don't think smokers have the right to blow clouds into non-smokers faces, but anyone that gives me **** about lighting up when i'm following the rules can screw off.

 

[WortMonger]

i'm a smoker...a few a night and more when i'm drinking.

in california you have to smoke 20 ft away from any vents or windows.

they do allow smoking in smoke shops. also outdoor restaurants...even some bars allow it under certain circumstances (i think it has to be private owned or something.)

in iowa, where i grew up, you could smoke anywhere. I passed around cigars at a pizza joint for my 18th birthday. there is still no law. however, almost all the restaurants have banned smoking inside. they didn't NEED the law, they changed their policy based on popular opinion.

regardless, i don't have a problem anywhere. there's no reason i SHOULD be able to smoke indoors if the establishment doesn't want it. i enjoy a smoke after dinner if i'm in a smoking restaurant. i smoke 20 ft away from the door when i'm at a bar in oakland.

i don't think smokers have the right to blow clouds into non-smokers faces, but anyone that gives me **** about lighting up when i'm following the rules can screw off.

I concur with your retort.......

 

[malkore]

I think its illegal to Godwin a thread in the initial post.

I agree though, I'm tired of smoking bans based on 'making it healthy for the non-smokers'. I too have seen the research on 2nd hand smoking that proves there is no statistical increase in cancer risk vs non-2nd hand smokers.

its just been shoved down our throats for decades now. You can make statistics lean either way...its all in the spin.
4 out of 5 doctors think the fifth guy is a moron.

 

[WortMonger]

Compare second hand smoke to air....................

 

[trabus]

As a former smoker of 7 years, I absolutely love this trend of smoking bans. I cannot understand how people can defend such an invasive disgusting habit (I know how gross it is first hand!) on the basis of "freedom". None of these bans prevents you from smoking in your car, or home, or even in many outdoor areas (though this usually results in people tossing their butts from their cars or in the outdoor area they're smoking in). As long as it doesn't impose upon another person, that is the line as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Chriso]

None of these bans prevents you from smoking in your car, or home, or even in many outdoor areas

Not entirely true - (Correct me if i'm wrong but I understand that) the city of Boulder CO has a total ban, including in cars and on sidewalks. It's either in your house, or not at all.

That might apply only to when stuck in a traffic jam. I don't know. This is all old info from a native Boulderite from about 2 years ago. (As I was smoking while walking down the street, and he corrected me.)

Just being nitpicky, sorry, proceed.

 

[trabus]

Not entirely true - (Correct me if i'm wrong but I understand that) the city of Boulder CO has a total ban, including in cars and on sidewalks. It's either in your house, or not at all.

That might apply only to when stuck in a traffic jam. I don't know. This is all old info from a native Boulderite from about 2 years ago. (As I was smoking while walking down the street, and he corrected me.)

Just being nitpicky, sorry, proceed.

I would love to be able to ban the ******** around my area from smoking in their car. Not having to turn on recirculated air because I'm stuck behind them in traffic, or watch some jerk flick a lit butt out of their window in the middle of a 6 month drought would be a welcome development to me.

If only people could be more responsible, or at least be real smokers and use their ashtrays and smoke with the windows up. I mean, if there's no problem with secondhand smoke, then why not get the most out of your cigarette and hot box it?

 

[Seabee John]

As a former smoker of 7 years, I absolutely love this trend of smoking bans. I cannot understand how people can defend such an invasive disgusting habit (I know how gross it is first hand!) on the basis of "freedom". None of these bans prevents you from smoking in your car, or home, or even in many outdoor areas (though this usually results in people tossing their butts from their cars or in the outdoor area they're smoking in). As long as it doesn't impose upon another person, that is the line as far as I'm concerned.

On the basis of freedom it has little to do with weather or not you pollute yourself in your own home... hell Roe V. Wade stated that it's your body... where the infringement upon the rights and freedoms of the citizens of the U.S. comes in is the fact that you can put your money on the line and buy a restaurant/bar, what have you, and it is by constitutional definition, "PRIVATE PROPERTY" but not really since the Supreme Court has not held in defense of property rights. The smoking bans having ANYTHING to do with health is (pardon the pun) all smoke! This is a property rights issue alone.

 

[EdWort]

I think people who flick lit cigarettes buts out a car window should be arrested and fined for littering (if they don't start a grass fire first). It is so lame to toss your trash out the window, but to toss burning trash is irresponsible and dangerous.

 

[Chriso]

If only people could be more responsible, or at least be real smokers and use their ashtrays and smoke with the windows up. I mean, if there's no problem with secondhand smoke, then why not get the most out of your cigarette and hot box it?

I've smoked in my car for the past 8 years, but i've never done it windows up. Then again, when I smoke indoors, I usually have a window cracked too. But by god, I've always used my ashtray or a trash can. Big pet peeve here.

 

[trabus]

On the basis of freedom it has little to do with weather or not you pollute yourself in your own home... hell Roe V. Wade stated that it's your body... where the infringement upon the rights and freedoms of the citizens of the U.S. comes in is the fact that you can put your money on the line and buy a restaurant/bar, what have you, and it is by constitutional definition, "PRIVATE PROPERTY" but not really since the Supreme Court has not held in defense of property rights. The smoking bans having ANYTHING to do with health is (pardon the pun) all smoke! This is a property rights issue alone.

I'm not entirely convinced that it's property rights alone, health and comfort are definitely factors in getting these bans passed by voters.

In some places, there are ways to get around many of these bans by having the establishment be a private club requiring membership. I know of a couple bars in Seattle that do this (they use this to get around serving food to serve liquor as well).

 

[trabus]

I've smoked in my car for the past 8 years, but i've never done it windows up. Then again, when I smoke indoors, I usually have a window cracked too. But by god, I've always used my ashtray or a trash can. Big pet peeve here.

When I smoked I would smoke in my car as well, with multiple windows down. I'm a total hypocrite on that point (though I'm a bit older and wiser now too), and I didn't use my ashtray, however I didn't toss the butts out the window either. I'd squeeze out the cherry and toss it in my pocket or empty soda can if I had one handy.

It's odd after being a nonsmoker for 5 years now, I see so many things that I used to do that drive me nuts now. I often wonder how many people I annoyed or offended with my smoking when I used to smoke. I blame youth and stupidity.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

When people flick cigarettes out their window and they hit my car I flip out. Well not flip out but it really pisses me off.

 

[Seabee John]

I'm not entirely convinced that it's property rights alone, health and comfort are definitely factors in getting these bans passed by voters.

In some places, there are ways to get around many of these bans by having the establishment be a private club requiring membership. I know of a couple bars in Seattle that do this (they use this to get around serving food to serve liquor as well).

Is there a ban on sunburn? how about skinned knees or stubbed toes? what about a ban on hemorrhoids? How about a ban on WORK altogether? work makes us all uncomfortable, and it's proven to be a detriment to our health.

This issue has NOTHING about keeping you healthy OR comfortable. In fact the very same people who are behind the bans on smoking are the very same people (radical environmentalists) who are quoted as saying that the only way the earth will every be good again is if the human race is eradicated from it's surface. You think they would be in favor of smoking if it would kill us all off faster...

But the fact is this issue is about control... specifically control over private property. Without the right to private property, there are NO other rights. next will be control over other facets of life such as thought control... you know... like hate speech. Hmmm any protected classes hanging around?