forum naiveté

[becon776]

So just sitting around and talking to my carboys today... one of whom has terrible farts which is only remedied by frequent and copious addition of yeast nutrient. And being a resouceful guy who would NEVER waste cider I thought... hmmm... if this cider doesn't come out (still ;-) haven't given up on it yet) what will I do with it? And it dawned on me that that its currently five degrees outside ofmy house right now.
Cool. Off the search the forum about what happens when you leave a bucket of 15% cider out for a night in the cold. And wow...... one closed thread after another. Really??? Has anyone really ever walked like every third brew shop and saw what hobby ours is paired with? I have noticed that homebrewing and indoor gardening seems to share the same storefront. Haha. Just kind of found some peoples reactions amusing when I looked for a little info regarding the above mentioned process.
p.s. I don't fear the fuzz I am the fuzz

 

[truckjohn]

The nasty rhino farts tend to happen mostly during the first few days - so you still have a while to go before you decide it's a loss... Likely, it will be fine provided you can force yourself to leave well enough alone.... It's a problem for all of us

On the subject of "Concentrating" your efforts... Well - those threads get pretty nasty... Lots of opinions.... Sometimes the best thing to do is to just let them die.... There's plenty of info out there if you want to find it....

Thanks

John

 

[becon776]

thanks yeah havntt given up on the cider yet. I was able to get the gist of what I needed to know from the closed threads. Ur right about the opinions though. I can honestly say that if any of the officers I work with arrested someone for freezing and decanting a few carboys it would be a joke that would make them feel dumb for years to come hahaha.

 

[becon776]

MMaybe if someone filled their inground pool up and left it to freeze.... maybe...it might be enough.

 

[dinnerstick]

i have never myself "concentrated" but the consensus seems to be: cider in, rotgut out
sign me up!

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, you are pretty naive about the ways of this forum aren't you? AND maybe a little about the legal history of our hobby.

The point is that we don't discuss anything illegal here. What you chose to do is one thing, what you chose to believe is another thing, but yes, we don't discuss things that are illegal here, whether it is distilling, or pot, or stealing cornies, or perhaps yes, announcing how much we brew.....

Or allow underagers to be on here.

And we do that for two major reasons.

1) respect for TX and the Mods here for putting together this wonderful supportive site. That is the biggest one...We love this place and want to protect it.

2)Secondly we respect our hobby, and alcohol, and most of us understand the precarious razor's edge that it sits on. We understand prohibition and the fact that 40 years after prohibition was rescinded our hobby was still Illegal.

So that's why whether we agree with the laws or not we refrain from discussing anything that could give us a bad name on here.....

Remember homebrewing wasn't re-legalized after the Volstead act was repealed in 1933, it wasn't legalized until 1978, and it took a lot of work in those 45 years to get it to happen....and despite it's federal legalization, it is STILL on a State by State basis.

Heck homebrewing was just legalized in Utah last year....and I think is still illegal in at least one state.

Some folks still think you can go blind drinking homebrew.
Other's can't distinguish what we're doing with making meth.

Hell even some cops look on what we're doing with suspicion.

Don't believe me? Check out this Cops episode if you haven't already....look at what "John Law" has to say about our little hobby. "The concotion he was making could be deadly..."






Hell, if MADD gets ever gets their way the oldschool version of prohibition may be like a picnic, compared to what it would be like in modern times. You think they'd let us make anything? (HomeWine making was sort of legal during prohibition as long as you didn't sell)

No probable cause would be necessary to be forced to breath into a tube.

Read this for some enlightenment...It was one of our members https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/ohio-university-homebrew-festival-shut-down-140105/#post1590903

And this from just a couple weeks ago https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/alabama-homebrewer-arrested-194144/?highlight=alabama

This IS the largest forum about the production of hobby alcohol...most of the time we rank #1 in a google search on homebrewring. And in this surveillance society we live in, I think that it is patently naive to think that the govment doesn't have a few surveillance bots pointed right at our forum looking for certain keywords....

So yeah, some of us are protective of our good name...and work damn hard to elevate our hobby and beer culture in general. So we try to respect the policies and rules of this place.

It's like our home.

 

[becon776]

Hahaha well the guy had fourteen dope plants going. I guarantee that what warranted the search warrant. I "still" would love to see the charges that were mounted against him.

The tenor and seriousness of your reply is both duly noted and exemplifies my initial point.

Fwiw I am new to this hobby but am infecting the brew bug into my coworkers one officer at a time

 

[TheCarnie]

If you believe that some laws associated with vice are wrong, you can choose to ignore them. Don't be shocked though if you get punished for it though.

As for discussing this kind of stuff on the forum, the same principle applies. A lot of people here are very scornful and believe such discussions about illegal activities will prevent the progression of our hobby,(and in some ways they are right.)

So you can start a thread about "concentrating" your soured brew, but don't get mad or be shocked when the thread gets locked.

 

[becon776]

No no was just suprised to see the candor associated with the topic. And as the possible owner of five gallons of possible "off" cider just thinking about options. This has actually led me into a few hours of research on the topic. Although I am just starting out with brewing and love my cider insofar, I am also a HUGE fan and proud heir to some ofmy great grandfathers pre prohibition scotch. So I thought "what's the deal with that anyway?" Turns out revs state is leading the way in the march.
Check it out...
......The realization that hobby distilling poses no more problems than beer-making and wine-making, and should be afforded exactly the same rights and freedoms without fear of prosecution, has been slow to come about but is finally taking hold. New Zealand led the way in 1996 but other countries undoubtedly will follow suit as soon as the light dawns. ......The most important example of this trend, a very significant trend, can be found in the United States where a bill is currently before Congress ---(Bill H.R. 3249) designed to legalize home distilling. It was sponsored by Representative Bart Stupak of Michigan and has been referred to the Ways and Means committee. Its progress can be followed by reference to http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.html .. .. So------a lifting of the ban is quite likely to occur in the near future, and those of you who have a yen to indulge in this hobby can start to feel quite comfortable at the thought. It is no longer a heinous crime on a par with mugging old ladies and child abuse. Governments are finally waking up to the fact that it is a perfectly innocuous activity (which might even bring in a little tax revenue!) so if you anticipate the actual date of legalization by a day or two it would be quite understandable.

 

[Revvy]

Now the irony of the situation is that "freeze concentration" of beer is perfectly legal according to the TTB. Though it may not be for ciders or other alcohol.

 

[Shooter]

I don't want to get this thread locked, but, honestly, I'm confused again, I thought it had recently been determined that freeze concentrating did not fall under the same legal banner as distilling?

 

[Shooter]

Now the irony of the situation is that "freeze concentration" of beer is perfectly legal according to the TTB. Though it may not be for ciders or other alcohol.

..and the good Reverend clarifies for me before I even hit the SEND button!!!

 

[becon776]

I still can't believe that thread about the ohio college and the brew club. Crazyness.

So rev its sort of like a gray area that this is on?

The irony is a uniformed officer asking the brew shop owner about the legality of this while picking up a brew bucket hahahaha

Also I definately didn't want to offend anyone on here with the thread title and I am pretty sure I mispelled nievity the threads that I read are long dead but was just kind of shocked to see some of the reactions to someone aski.g a question.

 

[becon776]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distillation-104882/

 

[Yuri_Rage]

This was a hotly debated topic in years past. The site admin has chosen to accept the findings of James Spencer as broadcast in an episode of Basic Brewing Radio. He concluded that freeze concentration is legal under US law. Therefore, we do allow discussions about the process.

Did you come here to talk about cider (the subforum where you chose to post) or debate forum terms of use?

 

[becon776]

Thank you... your clarification has helped immensly. I initially wanted to talk about the possibility of freeze concentration. But was overwhelmed by the search and the past threads. In actuality, this thread which started as a rant has been quite educatonal for me and seeing some of the struggles that members have encountered.

Thanks for your spelling correction lol... the thread is titled because I didn't know where to post these questions or after reading old threads if I could ask them.

My initial question and concern: if I fermented to about twelve % and freeze concentrate it... I am concerned about fusel or methyl formation / concentration as well. Also would any sulfurous off taste be passed on to the decanter liquid.

 

[Shooter]

Thank you... your clarification has helped immensly. I initially wanted to talk about the possibility of freeze concentration. But was overwhelmed by the search and the past threads. In actuality, this thread which started as a rant has been quite educatonal for me and seeing some of the struggles that members have encountered.

Thanks for your spelling correction lol... the thread is titled because I didn't know where to post these questions or after reading old threads if I could ask them.

My initial question and concern: if I fermented to about twelve % and freeze concentrate it... I am concerned about fusel or methyl formation / concentration as well. Also would any sulfurous off taste be passed on to the decanter liquid.

Any off taste will likely be intensified, along with the good flavors. I think you really need to make sure you have a clean beer or cider before attempting this.

 

[becon776]

Interesting so the good and the bad will end up in the final.product... but will it still.ferment at all? Here is what I am thinking... concentrate just using the outside temp ~5-15 degrees overnight. Decant. Then if is still off flavor I could adulterate the concentrate with flavors or syrups to make it sort of like schnapps or a cordial. Unless there is a risk of further fermentation.

 

[Yooper]

Interesting so the good and the bad will end up in the final.product... but will it still.ferment at all? Here is what I am thinking... concentrate just using the outside temp ~5-15 degrees overnight. Decant. Then if is still off flavor I could adulterate the concentrate with flavors or syrups to make it sort of like schnapps or a cordial. Unless there is a risk of further fermentation.

Yes, there would be further fermentation unless you exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast strain (possible) or keep it cold so that the yeast stays dormant.

I've seen some wine yeast strains approach 20% before stopping.

 

[becon776]

How do.you know.the % alcohol.after ice concentration? I know the initial sg can a hydrometer or.refractometer still be used? I used red star champagne yeast

 

[D0ug]

Ahhh.. noob here probably not thinking straight, but

If the percent alcohol gets high enough, the hydrometer will completely submerge right? I'm not sure if the scale on either of mine goes much below 0.990.


My other idea requires the maths

 

[MuddyMo]

(pause) Bravo!

 

[D0ug]

Hoo'kay... here goes...

Calculate the volume of alc. in your cider before you freeze it.
Record final recovered volume of cider after freezing.
Probably need at least a couple of digits for both measurements.
Divide volume of alc. in the original cider by recovered volume, multiple x 100 = New ABV

exmp Start with 1 gal. 12% ABV. This means 0.12 gal alcohol and 0.88 gal H2O.
Freeze and recover 0.80 gal of cider, there is some ice left behind, right?

0.12 gal alc/ 0.80 gal H2O = 0.15*100%= 15% ABV

 

[becon776]

Yeah! Lol but I was thinking about that method but that would assume that I have a perfect extraction right? I read that the concentration of wine at least differs dependig on the temp at whih you concentrate. At.

 

[D0ug]

Yeah! Lol but I was thinking about that method but that would assume that I have a perfect extraction right? I read that the concentration of wine at least differs dependig on the temp at whih you concentrate. At.

I think this should be pretty close, the big assumption with this model is that all the volume loss is due to water freezing out of solution and turning into ice. I think this is probably a pretty safe assumption since everything else in the solution had a much lower freezing point.

Other than that, maybe a refractometer could be used? I don't know, I've never even seen one, let alone use one.

unless some one else has another idea this might be the easiest way to go and should be fairly close.

Just my two cents...