Force Carbonation System

[dbrou]

I have a 5 gallon CO2 tank and a regulator. I want to carbonate to 100 PSI but my regulator has a safety relief valve that won't let me go beyond 35 PSI. Is it a bad idea to disable this valve? Does anyone have any thoughts about getting more CO2 dissolved into either a corny keg or 2 liter bottles?

 

[Yooper]

I have a 5 gallon CO2 tank and a regulator. I want to carbonate to 100 PSI but my regulator has a safety relief valve that won't let me go beyond 35 PSI. Is it a bad idea to disable this valve? Does anyone have any thoughts about getting more CO2 dissolved into either a corny keg or 2 liter bottles?

Don't use 100 psi in a corney keg OR in 2L bottles. Really.

A keg shouldn't blow up at 100 psi, but a 2L plastic bottle certainly will.

Why do you want to use 100 psi? Don't have a fridge?

 

[MrFoodScientist]

Even without refrigeration, there's really no need to carbonate at more than 60psi. Unless you're trying to force carbonate in your car in the summer, or you're trying to carbonate a concentrated sugar solution, neither of which make much sense anyway.

4 volumes of CO2 in pure water should be somewhere around 56-60psi.

 

[dbrou]

I truly have no desire to go to 100. I just found 35 to be fairly mild in 2 liters and a corny. Is my ratio of syrup to water in the soda the issue? Would disabling the valve and going to 50-60 be safe? Thanks again for the answers.

 

[Yooper]

I truly have no desire to go to 100. I just found 35 to be fairly mild in 2 liters and a corny. Is my ratio of syrup to water in the soda the issue? Would disabling the valve and going to 50-60 be safe? Thanks again for the answers.

Carbonation is temperature dependent. It's hard to say that 35 psi isn't enough carbonation- as if the soda was 33 degrees it would be much higher carbed than if it was at 60 degrees, at the same psi!

My system is 40 degrees, and at 30 psi the soda is very highly carbed. They key is that it takes a LOT of serving line to serve that properly, so 30' of serving line (yes, 30 feet!) of 3/16" line is needed to balance it so that it seems properly carbed.

What is your temperature and the length and diameter of your serving lines?

 

[dbrou]

My line is 204 bevlex. I looked it up and the outside diameter is .5". It is a pretty short length. I have been carbonation in a 2 liter out of the fridge and the same with a Cornelius keg. My guess is that it is just too warm and I'm not patient enough. Does the CO2 dissolve that much more within a 5 degree(I'm guessing here) range. I'm making sodas for a bar. I'm trying to get recipes set for batching larger. Is it better to mix carbonated water and syrup or carbonate the whole thing over time?

 

[MrFoodScientist]

More than likely your carbonation is just fine, but it's coming out with such force that it sloshes around in the glass when you pour it from the keg.

Also, are you shaking to carbonate? A 5gal keg will not carbonate instantly, and even a 2L could use some shaking (I'm assuming you're using a carbonation cap?)

Try this: Chill you keg of water overnight, then hook up the CO2 at about 25-30psi. It should squeal and then subside to a hiss. Now shake the keg, or roll it back and forth and the hiss will get louder again, though maybe not up to a squeal. When it gets to the point where you can shake it and the needle on the gauge doesn't dip anymore, then it's fully carbed. At that pressure, it will come out rather forcefully still, but you can release the pressure on your keg and pour at 8-10 psi to keep most of the carbonation. If you do that, just make sure you repressurize back up to 25-30 to store the keg, or you will lose the carbonation.

If you have to do that frequently, you can see that you'll blow through a lot of CO2, hence the recommendation for longer lines.

Since you're having trouble serving carbonated water, right now it's probably better for you to just carbonate the water and mix with syrup. Once you add sugar or juices to the mix, the problem only gets worse because the carbonation gets knocked out more easily due to the presence of other solutes and/or pulp. If you can get your serving method right, then you can more easily serve pre-mixed beverages from the keg

By "making sodas for a bar," do you mean that you're a bartender, or that you're making sodas to sell at the bar? The only reason I ask is that if you're an employee at the bar, there are likely better ways to get carbonated water. No need to reinvent the wheel if there's a wonder bar type gun handy.

 

[dbrou]

So up to this point I have been doing super small batches of soda and using a carbonation cap. I get that the more dissolved solids the harder it is to dissolve co2. I am a bartender and am working on going a bit bigger with Cornelius kegs. I will have access to a wunderbar cold plate system. I'm trying to work out a few things at once. I would like to fill a corny and use it on a mixed gas draft line. I would also like to bottle fully carbed soda for ease in storage and carry out. I have the draft thing mostly worked out but just wanted to tweak carbonation. I'm going to look into longer runs. I need the ease of serving carbed soda without the extra step of multiple pours. I appreciate the answers.

 

[dbrou]

Update: I was reading a few reviews of the regulator I purchased on amazon. It turns out that this particular one has a lot of complaints about the safety valve popping at too low a pressure. I'm not saying that this was my particular issue, but as far as troubleshooting goes, use quality equipment.

 

[XXXBrewDude]

More than likely your carbonation is just fine, but it's coming out with such force that it sloshes around in the glass when you pour it from the keg.

Also, are you shaking to carbonate? A 5gal keg will not carbonate instantly, and even a 2L could use some shaking (I'm assuming you're using a carbonation cap?)

Try this: Chill you keg of water overnight, then hook up the CO2 at about 25-30psi. It should squeal and then subside to a hiss. Now shake the keg, or roll it back and forth and the hiss will get louder again, though maybe not up to a squeal. When it gets to the point where you can shake it and the needle on the gauge doesn't dip anymore, then it's fully carbed. At that pressure, it will come out rather forcefully still, but you can release the pressure on your keg and pour at 8-10 psi to keep most of the carbonation. If you do that, just make sure you repressurize back up to 25-30 to store the keg, or you will lose the carbonation.

If you have to do that frequently, you can see that you'll blow through a lot of CO2, hence the recommendation for longer lines.

Since you're having trouble serving carbonated water, right now it's probably better for you to just carbonate the water and mix with syrup. Once you add sugar or juices to the mix, the problem only gets worse because the carbonation gets knocked out more easily due to the presence of other solutes and/or pulp. If you can get your serving method right, then you can more easily serve pre-mixed beverages from the keg

By "making sodas for a bar," do you mean that you're a bartender, or that you're making sodas to sell at the bar? The only reason I ask is that if you're an employee at the bar, there are likely better ways to get carbonated water. No need to reinvent the wheel if there's a wonder bar type gun handy.

Mr Food, When Using 30 feet of tap line, and keeping your pressure at 30PSI, doesn't the line (when not in use) fill with CO2 thus causing foam when you begin to fill the glass?
I just built a beer fridge with 5 taps. I put 2 taps of soda in there and have these at 30 PSI with 10 feet of line. I thought this would work fine because I installed flow control faucets. However not so, the flow control will slow the pour, however its still coming out excessive foam?

XXXBrewdude

 

[MrFoodScientist]

Mr Food, When Using 30 feet of tap line, and keeping your pressure at 30PSI, doesn't the line (when not in use) fill with CO2 thus causing foam when you begin to fill the glass?
I just built a beer fridge with 5 taps. I put 2 taps of soda in there and have these at 30 PSI with 10 feet of line. I thought this would work fine because I installed flow control faucets. However not so, the flow control will slow the pour, however its still coming out excessive foam?

XXXBrewdude

Brewdude,
I believe that in theory, it shouldn't come out of solution in your lines if they are inside the fridge and the pressure on the keg remains the same. I believe that the pressure in the line should be the same as pressure in the keg, but I could be wrong. In practice, I'm not sure if that's how it really works, I get by just fine with a 5 ft line on my soda for a couple of reasons. 1) When I'm serving, I usually turn the pressure down so the flow isn't a problem. This is usually for an event where I know the keg is going to pretty much kick before it can go flat at a lower pressure. This is obviously not practical for something that's going to get a few pours every now and again. 2) If I'm going to be doing smaller batches of soda, I usually bottle carbonated water from a keg on top of syrup. I use the biermuncher makeshift counter-pressure filler, so I can keep as much carbonation as possible and not worry about pressures. 3) I do use 1 or 2 epoxy mixers on occasion.
I did purchase a 10ft line once thinking that would help me. I didn't realize, though until after the fact that a 10ft 1/4" ID line offers less resistance than a 5ft 3/16" ID line. So I'm back to the 5ft line.

 

[opticflashback]

My wife has been hounding me to get some soda water started. So far, this thread has been the most useful. I am going to be using a 5gal keg of de-chlorinated water. From what I am reading here, I will need to chill the keg (as I would for a keg of beer) and then carbonate at 25-30PSI for about 5 days. I would also need 25-30 ft of 3/16 beer line. Does that sound about right?

Also, will a picnic tab hold up to this pressure? I am not sure if I want to dedicate a beer faucet for the soda water.

If this proves to be too involved, how do I do the 2L method? Fill with 20psi of CO2 using a carb cap and shake?

Any help would be appreciated! SWMBO wants to make soda syrup. LOL

 

[dbrou]

If you're just doing soda water, you don't need to worry about a 5 day turn around. A Cornelius of cold water should carbonate in 24 hours or a little less (in my experience). If you aren't bottling it, just lower the pressure to dispense and it'll be plenty carbonated. You don't even really need that length of line, which takes up space in your kegerator. Picnic tappers work fine at that pressure. Bleed the keg after lowering the pressure to make sure you don't get an initial blowout. You can readily infuse water with citrus zest or fresh herbs, etc. as well. You can also get away with dispensing a little higher/faster since you don't have to worry about foam. Try dispensing with the gas off and gently increase as needed.

 

[opticflashback]

If you're just doing soda water, you don't need to worry about a 5 day turn around. A Cornelius of cold water should carbonate in 24 hours or a little less (in my experience). If you aren't bottling it, just lower the pressure to dispense and it'll be plenty carbonated. You don't even really need that length of line, which takes up space in your kegerator. Picnic tappers work fine at that pressure. Bleed the keg after lowering the pressure to make sure you don't get an initial blowout. You can readily infuse water with citrus zest or fresh herbs, etc. as well. You can also get away with dispensing a little higher/faster since you don't have to worry about foam. Try dispensing with the gas off and gently increase as needed.

Thank you for the tips. I will get started on chilling down my keg tonight. If I have any problems/questions, I will bring them up here. You guys are great. Thanks for the help.

 

[opticflashback]

Just wanted to do a quick follow up. The carbonated water turned out great, even if it was right from the faucet. I may use spring water next time. 30psi of CO2 worked great for getting it into solution. I dialed it down to about 14psi and my picnic tap has no problem with the pressure. My wife drinks this stuff straight, but I am going to start experimenting with some syrups now that I have this part down. Thanks again.