Fly sparge - question

[Tagobolts]

Starting to brew more frequently now and trying to fly sparge. I know there are other ways and I plan to try them all but this is my process I have used twice. Once numbers were on, and the next they were off (I wasn't happy overall with the second recipe but thats another story).

I watched some videos and thought I had the process but I feel like I am off. I think some of the terms threw me off but hey, gotta learn somehow right?

First recipe I used was
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/16156/biermuncher-s-centennial-blonde


1. Heated water to 162. Added grains and water, mixed and covered. Temp was around 152 when I checked early on.
2. Heated Strike water to 168
(This is where I believe I have it wrong)
3. Added some strike water (say 2.5 of the 4 gallons) to the mash tun, stirred and waited 10 minutes.
4. Then stirred, lautered and then used the HLT and then sparged into MLT and into BK

So I know that it being a batch sparge in the recipe and me being a newb I think that is where I messed up and would like to know the correct way to do this, or be told that maybe I am on the right track and may just need to do one or two things?

The last brew I did was very vague in instructions and water temp was off, total water was off and final water was off as well.

 

[day_trippr]

It isn't clear what "and then used the HLT and then sparged into the MLT and into BK" actually means, but given you stirred half your sparge liquor in and drained that, what I believe you are describing would approximate a two step batch sparge.

Totally unlike an actual fly sparge, where you slowly draw wort from the MLT (typical rate is ~one liter/quart per minute) while simultaneously dribbling sparge liquor atop the grain bed at the same rate, continuing until the required pre-boil volume has been reached in the BK.

Have you seen this? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/fly-sparing-vs-batch-sparging/

Cheers!

 

[Tagobolts]

Sorry yes. One water cooler with hot water, into the mash tun while draining into the kettle. So I THINK I am doing that part ok. What is confusing me is the 10 minute step. Is that necessary? and if so how much of the remaining water should be poured in?

I did read that, but now that I have performed some of the steps and am starting to understand it better ill re-read it! Thanks

 

[Blazinlow86]

Sorry yes. One water cooler with hot water, into the mash tun while draining into the kettle. So I THINK I am doing that part ok. What is confusing me is the 10 minute step. Is that necessary? and if so how much of the remaining water should be poured in?

I did read that, but now that I have performed some of the steps and am starting to understand it better ill re-read it! Thanks

The sparge water you add to the top of the grain bed would be heated to 168 in your case prior to starting your sparge. Cheers

 

[Tagobolts]

The sparge water you add to the top of the grain bed would be heated to 168 in your case prior to starting your sparge. Cheers

Ok so is it ok for me to add just 2-3 gallons of this to the mash tun and let it sit for 10 minutes or is that not needed? Should I just skip 10 minutes and start sparging to the kettle right away?

 

[day_trippr]

A classic fly sparge is a continuous process - there is no stopping or stirring or batch additions. Again, the entire required sparge volume is slowly poured atop the mash while draining at the same rate until the required pre-boil volume is reached. Ideally the last bit of sparged wort is very low in sugar content...

Cheers!

 

[Blazinlow86]

Ok so is it ok for me to add just 2-3 gallons of this to the mash tun and let it sit for 10 minutes or is that not needed? Should I just skip 10 minutes and start sparging to the kettle right away?

I would skip the 10 mins and start sparging with the 168 water right away. Also you don't want to stir the mash after vourlafing as you will get more solids into your boil kettle. Cheers

 

[RichBenn]

It sounded like a batch sparge you were doing. Ideally, one would raise the mash to 168 for a 10 minutes to stop or fix conversion, then sparge. Batch spargers may add water above this temperature either before or after draining, so that the result ant wort may be 168 after stiring. They'll then wait 10 minutes before vorlaufing and draining again.

Fly spargers typically just sparge continually for 50 minutes or so with 168 degree water, after vorlauf. In either case, holding the wort at 168 is ideal, but since the wort is brought to boil soon, it generally does not affect the results too much if a 10 minute rest at 168 is not achieved,

 

[CascadesBrewer]

3. Added some strike water (say 2.5 of the 4 gallons) to the mash tun, stirred and waited 10 minutes.

It sounds like you might be confused with a "mash out" step. With a mash out, you raise the temp of the grain bed after your mash to around 168F. The idea is that the warmer temps help loosen up sugars in the grain and the temps stop further enzyme action. You then let this rest for 10 minutes at 168F. It is an optional step.

If you are mashing in a cooler (which I have never done) you would have to add a certain amount of hot (boiling?) water to raise the temp. I do a mash out, but I mash in my boil kettle and apply heat to the kettle to raise the temps. I get the impression that most people that mash in a cooler (or other vessel where they cannot apply heat) do not do a mash out.

 

[Dland]

I do not raise mash temp at end of mash, just mash for 60 min or so, vorlauf (recirculate) for 10 min and start fly sparge, usually with water at around 175 - 190F(depending on ambient temp). I let a gallon or so sparge water into MT before I send wort to BK, and leave a layer of sparge water on top of mash until sparge water runs out.

My typical batch size for equipment profile is around 18-22# grain, 6.5-7 gallons mash water addition, 9-9.5 gallons sparge water.

In the end, the spent mash usually reaches 160-165F at end sparge, so there are no extra tanens leached(you do not want mash to go over 170F).

This is what works well on my rig, after trying out several variations. Usually I hit above 80% efficiency and get tasty wort. This seems to be one of those things where procedures will vary quite a bit depending on equipment used and preferences of brewer.

 

[Soulshine2]

Starting to brew more frequently now and trying to fly sparge. I know there are other ways and I plan to try them all but this is my process I have used twice. Once numbers were on, and the next they were off (I wasn't happy overall with the second recipe but thats another story).

I watched some videos and thought I had the process but I feel like I am off. I think some of the terms threw me off but hey, gotta learn somehow right?

First recipe I used was
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/16156/biermuncher-s-centennial-blonde


1. Heated water to 162. Added grains and water, mixed and covered. Temp was around 152 when I checked early on.
2. Heated Strike water to 168
(This is where I believe I have it wrong)
3. Added some strike water (say 2.5 of the 4 gallons) to the mash tun, stirred and waited 10 minutes.
4. Then stirred, lautered and then used the HLT and then sparged into MLT and into BK

So I know that it being a batch sparge in the recipe and me being a newb I think that is where I messed up and would like to know the correct way to do this, or be told that maybe I am on the right track and may just need to do one or two things?

The last brew I did was very vague in instructions and water temp was off, total water was off and final water was off as well.

If I read your description right, you waited only 10 minutes between adding your strike water and lautering/sparging...You most likely didnt get any conversion . Mash times should be at least 30 minutes, more like 60 for a beginner just to make sure the conversion occurred given the water temp going in and then mash temp was right.
I batch sparge , at least twice. I usually do a 60 minute single step infusion at 152-156 depending on the batch but I start with around half of the volume I plan to end up with and then sparge up to my pre-boil volume .
My last brew on Monday I actually step mashed with 122*F protein added hotter water until I hit 135*F for saccarification rest then added more hotter water until I hit my 154*F final rest. Total time mashing was more like 100 minutes. Then a 170*F mash out /sparge until my pre-boil amount was in the kettle .Same outcome of actual original gravity number as to predetermined expectations so I cant tell yet whether or not a step mash is better or worse for conversion or no difference. Seems to be personal preference .

 

[Homergah]

OP. I've had a setup similar to yours. That 168 step is a mash out, as others have stated. In brewers friend you will find a mash calculator. Enter in a second mash temperature and the program will tell you how much water it will take to raise the grain bed to 168. Usually a gallon or so of boiling water. After you've reached conversion, add the calculated amount of mash out water to the tun. Stir. Check temp. You should be close to 168. If not, don't worry about it. Just note what you got and move on. Let mash rest for 10 minutes, vorlauf till clear. Have your sparge water heated to 175. It will cool down a bit during transfer. Begin sparge. As long as you're keeping a steady outflow of wort to BK while adding water to tun, you are fly sparging. Make sure to keep an inch or two of water above grain bed. This will keep the inflow of water from stirring up grain. Water can be added with a hose, ladle, bowl, cup, whatever. And doesn't have to be continuous flow. Just keep water above grain and outflow continuous.

 

[Tagobolts]

Thank you everyone. Yes it sounds like the mash out was confusing me. But I think I am starting to understand it a bit better. Instead of raising the temp to 168 I was just adding some of the sparge water (which was saying around 162 degrees) and just kind of wasting time. Sounds Like I need to add a gallon of near boiling water to raise that temp, then do the fly sparge. Thank you so much for your help everyone.

 

[sicktght311]

Heres my usual sparge process with my 3 vessel system

1) 60 minute Mash with my appropriate water volumes (calculated online) constantly recirculated through herms coil in the HLT. Usually somewhere around 4-5 gallons of strike water for a 5.5 finished batch.
2) End of 60 minute mash, i raise the temp of the mash to 168 by raising the HLT to 170, and circulating the mash throguh the herms coil until it stabilizes at 168. Then i shut the element and pumps off
3) Reconfigure hoses so HLT water flows out of the HLT, through the top of the herms coil, out the bottom of the herms coil, into the top of the mash tun. At the same time, i have my second pump taking wort out of the bottom of the mash tun, and into the boil kettle. Both valves are set fully closed, and then opened so they're both a slow trickle
4) i monitor the liquid level in the mash tun and adjust valves both from the HLT, and out to the BK, so that the liquid level stays constant in the Mashtun, and theres about an inch of water on top of the grain.
5) I monitor the levels in the HLT until my total sparge volume (again, precalculated online) has transferred over, and then shut off the HLT pump and continue to drain from the Mash tun until i reach my desired level in the boil kettle.

During this process i also continuously take gravity readings from the liquid coming out of the mash tun into the boil kettle, and ensure that the gravity doesnt go below 1.010 to avoid any astrigency issues from tannins.

Once i reach my total target boil kettle volume, or once the gravity falls below 1.010, i shut evewrything down, and begin the boil. If i'm off on my volumes, i adjust my numbers next time. If i hit my numbers properly, then i note it in my recipe and do the same thing again next time.

 

[wheels4]

I know it has been a few weeks since you posted but wanted to tell you I had the same issue early on. I have always fly sparged with a cheap'o three tier system. I mash at 1.25 qts/lb. and always did a mashout step (added x gallons of boiling water to hit 168). My numbers were always all over the place. One brew would be 70% efficiency and the next would be 80. I stopped doing a mashout all together and get a constant 78% and it saves me a step. Honestly you do not need the mashout and you will have a more consistent efficiency. I also change my flow rate depending on how I mashed. I do a lot of overnight mashing now as it saves on brew day time. I mash in at 8-9 at night and start to sparge around 6 in the morning. If I do a longer mash I have found I can run it off at a faster pace and still get the same efficiency. I collect 12.5 gallons for most of my boils and collect it in about 15 minutes or less. Always keep 1 inch or more water on top of grains when sparging (until the end) as I just about run my MT out of water every time. Works for me and has given me consistent results on repeat recipes.

 

[Tagobolts]

Thank you! I may try just skipping the mashout step as well. This weekend we did another batch and I tried to watch my temperatures a bit more. I made a home depot cooler tun and it does not seem to keep the temperature very well at all. Should have went with a lowes one. Or maybe coolers are just bad in general.

 

[sicktght311]

I know it has been a few weeks since you posted but wanted to tell you I had the same issue early on. I have always fly sparged with a cheap'o three tier system. I mash at 1.25 qts/lb. and always did a mashout step (added x gallons of boiling water to hit 168). My numbers were always all over the place. One brew would be 70% efficiency and the next would be 80. I stopped doing a mashout all together and get a constant 78% and it saves me a step. Honestly you do not need the mashout and you will have a more consistent efficiency. I also change my flow rate depending on how I mashed. I do a lot of overnight mashing now as it saves on brew day time. I mash in at 8-9 at night and start to sparge around 6 in the morning. If I do a longer mash I have found I can run it off at a faster pace and still get the same efficiency. I collect 12.5 gallons for most of my boils and collect it in about 15 minutes or less. Always keep 1 inch or more water on top of grains when sparging (until the end) as I just about run my MT out of water every time. Works for me and has given me consistent results on repeat recipes.

So you're basically just skipping the temp raise to 168-170, and just sparging with Mash temp water at like 152?

 

[wheels4]

Sorry it took me a few days to get back here. No I'm sparging with 170 water not 152 but yes skipping raising the temp. Thinning the mash was 100% screwing up my efficiency.

 

[sicktght311]

Sorry it took me a few days to get back here. No I'm sparging with 170 water not 152 but yes skipping raising the temp. Thinning the mash was 100% screwing up my efficiency.

Ahhhh gotcha. Doesn't really apply then i suppose to anyone using a 3 vessel herms system, since you have to raise the temp of the water in the HLT after the mash up to sparge temp, which raises the mash temp anyway since you're recirculating through the herms coil. Will save me a couple of minutes i suppose if i just start sparging when the HLT hits 168-170, instead of waiting for the Mash to hit 168-170

 

[kh54s10]

There is a lot of mis-information in this thread.

Things I noticed:

In a mashout you want to bring the grain temperature to at least 168 degrees. This is to stop enzymatic action, not loosen the sugars in the grain. The flavor/mouthfeel of the beer will be locked at that desired by the mash temperature. Then you sparge.

In batch sparging it is pretty much unnecessary since you are not allowing the wort in the kettle to cool over the 45 minutes to an hour that it takes to fly sparge. Most batch spargers will not do a mashout.

In fly sparging I would stir the grain, vorlauf then start the sparge.

IMO, though I have never fly sparged, you can either do a mashout or sparge with water hot enough to act as a mashout.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The important thing is the grainbed temp, not the water temp.

If you mash out and the grainbed is already 168, then you want to use 168 water.

If you don't mash out, you can use water a good bit hotter than that.

Takes some dialing and practice to get consistent, but using a continuous sparge and no mashout, you could shorten your mash time, and allow conversion to continue in the kettle while running off. I used to do it this way, 15 min mash, 15 min recirc, runoff, sparge water at about 170. Heat got cranked on in the kettle about halfway through. Conversion finished as kettle got to temp, grain bed approached 168 at the end of runoff, while kettle was then a few degrees shy of boil. Big timesaver with same quality end product.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

In a mashout you want to bring the grain temperature to at least 168 degrees. This is to stop enzymatic action, not loosen the sugars in the grain. The flavor/mouthfeel of the beer will be locked at that desired by the mash temperature. Then you sparge.

I see it repeated over and over on this forum that the mash out does not "loosen the sugars", yet every brewing book that I have says that the mash out does two things 1) stop enzymatic action and 2) loosen up sugars (probably not using that term). Maybe that is outdated and/or maybe it only really applies to a sparge process to prevent a stuck sparge and/or maybe it does not apply to fine crushed grain, but I don't see any logic why this would not help a BIAB, at least to some extent.

It is also odd, because I have never heard of a homebrewer using a mash out to control wort fermentability by stopping activity and I have read that this is a challenge to do on the pro level given the high diastatic power of modern malts. Conversion just happens too fast to control with heat. I have only heard of homebrewers setting a mash temp and mashing until full conversion.

I have not seen any good studies posted about BIAB efficiency impact with a mash out. I have read a few people saying that they are getting a few percentage points higher with a mash out. Is that due to the warmer temps "loosing the sugars" or just because they grain stays in the water for longer?

 

[day_trippr]

I'm pretty sure I've read it doesn't matter what temperature one sparges at wrt extract efficiency.
I've also made up my mind a gain in extract with a mash-out is simply due to more time on the mash clock...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

I see it repeated over and over on this forum that the mash out does not "loosen the sugars", yet every brewing book that I have says that the mash out does two things 1) stop enzymatic action and 2) loosen up sugars (probably not using that term). Maybe that is outdated and/or maybe it only really applies to a sparge process to prevent a stuck sparge and/or maybe it does not apply to fine crushed grain, but I don't see any logic why this would not help a BIAB, at least to some extent.

It is also odd, because I have never heard of a homebrewer using a mash out to control wort fermentability by stopping activity and I have read that this is a challenge to do on the pro level given the high diastatic power of modern malts. Conversion just happens too fast to control with heat. I have only heard of homebrewers setting a mash temp and mashing until full conversion.

I have not seen any good studies posted about BIAB efficiency impact with a mash out. I have read a few people saying that they are getting a few percentage points higher with a mash out. Is that due to the warmer temps "loosing the sugars" or just because they grain stays in the water for longer?

Gelatinization and solubility come in to play.

It may just be one of those things that is less impactful on small scale. Take 1000+lbs of wet grain at 140 vs 165 and the difference in runoff time is significant. Whether the increased gravity is due to smoother runoff or increased extraction from higher temp i don't know, but there's that too. But mainly it's runoff speed.

 

[kh54s10]

I see it repeated over and over on this forum that the mash out does not "loosen the sugars", yet every brewing book that I have says that the mash out does two things 1) stop enzymatic action and 2) loosen up sugars (probably not using that term). Maybe that is outdated and/or maybe it only really applies to a sparge process to prevent a stuck sparge and/or maybe it does not apply to fine crushed grain, but I don't see any logic why this would not help a BIAB, at least to some extent.

It is also odd, because I have never heard of a homebrewer using a mash out to control wort fermentability by stopping activity and I have read that this is a challenge to do on the pro level given the high diastatic power of modern malts. Conversion just happens too fast to control with heat. I have only heard of homebrewers setting a mash temp and mashing until full conversion.

I have not seen any good studies posted about BIAB efficiency impact with a mash out. I have read a few people saying that they are getting a few percentage points higher with a mash out. Is that due to the warmer temps "loosing the sugars" or just because they grain stays in the water for longer?

It is relatively recently that the idea that mash out or sparge temperature makes little difference. My experience came as a mistake. I forgot to heat the sparge water. It was down to about 140 degrees. This happened a few times now . I am usually within a couple of points from what Beersmith predicts preboil and OG. One time I hit the numbers exactly another other was low by 2 points. This gives the same predictability as I had with 168 - 170 degree sparge water. I batch sparge and don't do a mash out.

I don't think the homebrewer is trying to control wort fermentability per se. I think they are trying to keep fermentability where it would be at a particular mash temperature. If you are looking for a heavy mouthfeel by mashing at 156 and you let the wort cool to 135 during an extended sparge in effect you are mashing lower than the target. Since modern malts convert quickly, I don't know how much difference it really makes.
I too have seen BIABers saying that they get a few points higher. IDK.
IMO, the sugars are not sticky and you are just rinsing sugar solution out of the grain. Hot or cold should not make a difference.