Flexible all grain pilot setup for relatively little $

[augiedoggy]

Besides durability and larger size options?

Yes, To really appreciate the difference it helps to actually use them both.
But they have advantages for many of the same reasons just about all commercial breweries use them over buckets or containers with spigots. They are easier to clean with more resistance to infection vs plastic, the conicals can be used to keg or bottle without oxygen exposure, trub and dead yeast can be more adequately removed at different points in the fermentation process without negatively impacting beer like oxygen exposure and or greater risk of infection from transferring to a secondary. also the cone shaped bottom minimizes the amount of dead yeast to beer surface area at any given point during fermentation which helps with autolysis (Im aware I spelled that wrong.)

I have both plastic and stainless conical fermenters at home and at the brewpub and the stainless conicals are worth the extra investment to me. so much so that as soon as space permits we are upgrading to stainless unitanks. for home brewing , having a unitank may not offer as many advantages and can actually be a disadvantage in the sense that it can slow everything down and prevent as much beer from being able to be made due to conditioning, carbonation and cold crashing tieing up the unitank and holding up the next brew. however to some having zero yeast in the keg and brite clean beer going into them might outway that. especially when one can afford multiple unitanks.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

$3k?? Just for hb? Try $200. Converted homer cooler/false bottom and 2 aluminum pots from Academy. Consistency is about knowing your equipment. I've had wildly inconsistent beers from million dollar breweries mind you.

 

[bracconiere]

$3k?? Just for hb? Try $200. Converted homer cooler/false bottom and 2 aluminum pots from Academy. Consistency is about knowing your equipment. I've had wildly inconsistent beers from million dollar breweries mind you.

View attachment 632829View attachment 632830

+1, looks like about what i brew with....cost me $400, with a burner....and i picked up a fridge for my kegs at a garage sale....20# co2 tank is about $120. QD's are pretty cheap...picnic taps...

 

[RPh_Guy]

They are easier to clean

I didn't factor in cleaning into my comparisons because I think they're all really easy to clean. My Fermonsters I soak with PBW, the wide mouth makes wiping easy, and rinsing is super easy since I can easily hold it upside-down while I spray water into it. Narrow-neck glass carboys can be easily cleaned with pads on a drill attachment (e.g. a Vortex). Stainless and glass you can more aggressively scrub, but that's not strictly needed.

more resistance to infection vs plastic

While you're right, I think the difference is negligible.
IMO most contaminations come from newbie bucket users that scrub too hard and/or don't properly clean/sanitize and/or don't use proper clean technique when handing the wort/beer and/or use unsanitary ingredients. It's easy to get lazy and cut corners after the first few batches without contamination.
If plastic fermenters caused rampant contaminations, we wouldn't be using them.

the conicals can be used to keg or bottle without oxygen exposure

Any type can closed transfer to a keg.

How can you bottle without oxygen exposure? Carbonate in the fermentation vessel and fill bottles straight from there? That works but it's unnecessary, and bottle conditioning probably provides superior oxygen-reduction anyway.
I successfully bottle low-oxygen (AKA LODO) beer with a traditional homebrewer bottling process.

trub and dead yeast can be more adequately removed at different points in the fermentation process without negatively impacting beer like oxygen exposure and or greater risk of infection from transferring to a secondary.

That's true, if you decide a secondary is necessary for some reason. I'd consider this a rare case.
Autolysis isn't an issue on the homebrew scale -- less pressure on the yeast.

Again, a lot of this is just opinion. It's all good.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

+1, looks like about what i brew with....cost me $400, with a burner....and i picked up a fridge for my kegs at a garage sale....20# co2 tank is about $120. QD's are pretty cheap...picnic taps...

True. Just bought an induction top and 5gal kettle for $100 for 3gallon batches myself.

 

[augiedoggy]

$3k?? Just for hb? Try $200. Converted homer cooler/false bottom and 2 aluminum pots from Academy. Consistency is about knowing your equipment. I've had wildly inconsistent beers from million dollar breweries mind you.

View attachment 632829View attachment 632830

Theres a number of manufacturers (especially in the food and medical industry that would disagree with you here) you can make great beer with your equipment I am right there with you for saving money. but by that same token, to rule out anything more professional or complex as having no merit is pretty short sited too.

 

[bracconiere]

especially in the food and medical industry that would disagree with you here

the medical industry is funded with insurance money, and they know they can charge what ever they want too....the doctors all look at me funny when i ask "how much does it cost?" lol

 

[Alan Hogue]

Hey, I think I get it, I know that a question like this will elicit sometimes drastically different brewing philosophies. I've been doing some fairly intensive research lately, and so many decisions come down to how you weight many different factors.

Previously I weighted thrift above everything. While I had a good time and did make some nice beers, I could not seem to get much consistency, and some of the brews were fine but somehow slightly off to me, I don't know I might be finicky or maybe I just suck at brewing this way.

So now I am reweighting the variables and trying to find the best balance for me. I know I want more consistency and higher quality than I seemed to be able to manage before. (I think a lot of the variance at the frugal level has to do with differing climates.) I am looking for a setup which would be more or less ideal for consistent, high quality results -- given my probably woeful level of skill -- and be fairly compact. I don't have a lot of room.

So far I think the Anvil looks best to me. It's not super expensive, but would be a nice rig to do small batches at somewhat high volume, so I can easily compare small recipe tweaks.

Anyway, that's me. I appreciate all of this feedback and am thinking carefully about it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

$3k?? Just for hb? Try $200. Converted homer cooler/false bottom and 2 aluminum pots from Academy. Consistency is about knowing your equipment. I've had wildly inconsistent beers from million dollar breweries mind you.

View attachment 632829View attachment 632830

What's happening in that first photo? Vorlauf?

@Alan Hogue If you have questions about specific items or processes, fire away!

We are happy to argu--- I mean help!

 

[madscientist451]

I spend a lot of time at a second home and I recently splurged and acquired another brewing rig for the part time house.
4 gallon SS brew pot from local Goodwill store $7.99
BIAB bag I think it was about $8
3 gallon PET fermenter $20
I already had an extra funnel, thermometer, hydrometer and some other odds and ends.
But if I had to buy that stuff I'd probably be into another $50.
So if your budget is $3K you'd have $2900 left over.
OK so this will only do 2.5 gal batches, but I'm trying to make the point that if you want to brew beer and keep it simple, you don't really need a lot of cash.
If I lost all my brew stuff in an earthquake and had $3K to spend here's my list:
220V EBIAB from one of the companies that make them
2 chest freezers, one for temp control, one for kegs.
Kegs, Co2 tanks and regulators
I'd probably upgrade to a SS fermenter, but not a conical.
Grain mill, grain storage, scale.
Misc test equipment, PH meter, hydrometer thermometer.
I think I'd still have $1k left after I bought all the above.

 

[augiedoggy]

I think the point the op has been making it he doesnt want to use the basic equipment anymore. The anvil is a great choice, but without temp control for fermentation I would not expect much in terms of consistency, or improvement. Improving mash temp control makes a difference but its not the single most important temp control factor. Fermentation is. It impacts how the beer will come out dramatically.

also if you really want a "pilot setup" you probably dont want to go with a biab setup as the recipes wont easily scale up to the 2/3 vessel designs of a nano or microbrewery... just something to consider. I made a 3bbl copy more of less of my homebrewing system and we are still tweaking and adjusting like 20 brews later to get them to match our pilot recipes..

 

[Alan Hogue]

Improving mash temp control makes a difference but its not the single most important temp control factor. Fermentation is. It impacts how the beer will come out dramatically.

Yes, this is something I've been thinking about a lot. Apparently some people get great results without it, but after trying without reliable fermentation temp control for a while, it hasn't worked for me.

The new place I will be working in has central air conditioning, however, and I think it will be fairly easy to keep the ambient temp at about 68f or a bit lower. Previously I had no AC so the temp could change a lot more. In your opinion, for a start, would having room temp control be good enough, or do I really need a fridge or some other heat exchanging device? I live in a more or less desert climate.

also if you really want a "pilot setup" you probably dont want to go with a biab setup as the recipes wont easily scale up to the 2/3 vessel designs of a nano or microbrewery... just something to consider. I made a 3bbl copy more of less of my homebrewing system and we are still tweaking and adjusting like 20 brews later to get them to match our pilot recipes..

Another thing on my mind a lot. I do want to be able to scale up eventually. OTOH space is limited, so BIAB might be the best I can manage for the time being.

 

[Alan Hogue]

Ok, so after lots of research and thinking about the comments here, I think I have a setup that should work for me for now.

My thinking is this. Since I am looking to work with small batches, say 2.5 gallons or so, in order to have fast iteration of recipe tweaks, I think I can live without a lot of nice to have things for now. At this smaller scale I think just an ice bath in the sink should be fine rather than an immersion chiller or some other setup that requires a pump. Also at this scale fermentation temp control should be easier since there is half the thermal mass or whatever of a standard 5 gallon batch. (Also I will have central AC at the new place for much better ambient consistency.)

Also on my mind is that I will eventually want to scale up, but for now a smaller kettle etc makes sense in terms of space. I tried looking at a larger more scalable setup but once you go past a certain batch size the costs explode and so does the space you need. So, keeping in mind that I will probably want to replace some of this soon enough, I am trying to keep costs quite low (and save the extra for the larger, nicer setup).

I have put together a complete setup on Morebeer that is just under $300. I'd love to hear anyone's comments on it. Here it is:

1 Airlock - S-Shaped $ 2.49
1 Fermometer $ 3.99
1 Cleaner - PBW (1 lb) $ 8.99
1 Star San - 8 oz $ 11.99
2 Beer Bottles - 22 oz... $ 26.98
1 Bottle Caps - Black 1... $ 4.49
1 Bottle Capper - Bench Top $ 39.99
1 Plastic Bucket With... $ 17.99
1 Bottle Filler With... $ 4.99
1 Fermonster 3 Gallon... $ 20.39
1 Universal Stopper #10... $ 3.69
1 FerMonster - Lid Opener $ 3.99
1 Bag - 27.5 in x 32.5... $ 14.99
1 Vinyl Tubing - 1/2 in... $ 2.99
1 Kettle - 5 Gallon $ 24.99
1 Refractometer - Dual... $ 59.99
1 Omega Yeast - Propper... $ 12.99
1 Thermometer - (2 in. x... $ 26.99

The bucket is for bottling and has a spigot. So does the fermenter.

I added the instant yeast starter because I want to compare a batch with a starter vs without to decide whether I think the extra trouble is worth it. Note this is meant to be a 2.5 gallon BIAB setup. I think the kettle might be big enough but I'm not 100% sure.

Thanks.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, this is something I've been thinking about a lot. Apparently some people get great results without it, but after trying without reliable fermentation temp control for a while, it hasn't worked for me.

The new place I will be working in has central air conditioning, however, and I think it will be fairly easy to keep the ambient temp at about 68f or a bit lower. Previously I had no AC so the temp could change a lot more. In your opinion, for a start, would having room temp control be good enough, or do I really need a fridge or some other heat exchanging device? I live in a more or less desert climate.



Another thing on my mind a lot. I do want to be able to scale up eventually. OTOH space is limited, so BIAB might be the best I can manage for the time being.

Ive seen active fermentation take the temps 4-5 degrees above ambient. unfortunately your beers will likely have off flavors from fermenting at 72+ I normally ferment my ales at 65-67 and thats the actual fermentation temps- not room temp. it does change as soon as fermentation slows. then theirs the rest period where you need to bring fermentation up for 24 hrs to help the yeast finish.

 

[Soulshine2]

Ok, so after lots of research and thinking about the comments here, I think I have a setup that should work for me for now.

My thinking is this. Since I am looking to work with small batches, say 2.5 gallons or so, in order to have fast iteration of recipe tweaks, I think I can live without a lot of nice to have things for now. At this smaller scale I think just an ice bath in the sink should be fine rather than an immersion chiller or some other setup that requires a pump. Also at this scale fermentation temp control should be easier since there is half the thermal mass or whatever of a standard 5 gallon batch. (Also I will have central AC at the new place for much better ambient consistency.)

Also on my mind is that I will eventually want to scale up, but for now a smaller kettle etc makes sense in terms of space. I tried looking at a larger more scalable setup but once you go past a certain batch size the costs explode and so does the space you need. So, keeping in mind that I will probably want to replace some of this soon enough, I am trying to keep costs quite low (and save the extra for the larger, nicer setup).

I have put together a complete setup on Morebeer that is just under $300. I'd love to hear anyone's comments on it. Here it is:

1 Airlock - S-Shaped $ 2.49
1 Fermometer $ 3.99
1 Cleaner - PBW (1 lb) $ 8.99
1 Star San - 8 oz $ 11.99
2 Beer Bottles - 22 oz... $ 26.98
1 Bottle Caps - Black 1... $ 4.49
1 Bottle Capper - Bench Top $ 39.99
1 Plastic Bucket With... $ 17.99
1 Bottle Filler With... $ 4.99
1 Fermonster 3 Gallon... $ 20.39
1 Universal Stopper #10... $ 3.69
1 FerMonster - Lid Opener $ 3.99
1 Bag - 27.5 in x 32.5... $ 14.99
1 Vinyl Tubing - 1/2 in... $ 2.99
1 Kettle - 5 Gallon $ 24.99
1 Refractometer - Dual... $ 59.99
1 Omega Yeast - Propper... $ 12.99
1 Thermometer - (2 in. x... $ 26.99

The bucket is for bottling and has a spigot. So does the fermenter.

I added the instant yeast starter because I want to compare a batch with a starter vs without to decide whether I think the extra trouble is worth it. Note this is meant to be a 2.5 gallon BIAB setup. I think the kettle might be big enough but I'm not 100% sure.

Thanks.

have you looked into ready made brew kits ,might find a package deal for less instead of piecing it out . If youre looking for a yeast that will work in warmer climates...may try Mangrove Jacks...I might be getting some to try myself , I saw one goes up to 88*F . I was like, wow, thats warm. My basement usually stays cool but this week its pushing upper 70s . Either I stop brewing until it cools off or I try different yeast.

 

[augiedoggy]

have you looked into ready made brew kits ,might find a package deal for less instead of piecing it out . If youre looking for a yeast that will work in warmer climates...may try Mangrove Jacks...I might be getting some to try myself , I saw one goes up to 88*F . I was like, wow, thats warm. My basement usually stays cool but this week its pushing upper 70s . Either I stop brewing until it cools off or I try different yeast.

I know a local brewer who uses mangrove jacks for just about everything. beers are good but theres a familiar flavor lingering on them which I wonder if its related to the yeast.

I had a malfunction on one of our first few beers where the temp probe was plugged into the port of an unused fermenter and the fermentation temps (in our 63 degree basement in the winter mind you) were allowed to rise.. The beer fermented in 2 days and had to sit a month even though it was an ale just to get rid of the sulfur smell and off flavors as a result. when it was servable it was good but not at all the same as the recipe normally comes out. you can get a drastic difference in flavor from only a few degrees difference and dont go by the temp range on the packets of yeast.. the yeast may thrive at a higher temp but thats not always where you want to be if you want a clean flavor prfile.. if your looking for more flavor from the yeast then sure.

 

[Soulshine2]

I know a local brewer who uses mangrove jacks for just about everything. beers are good but theres a familiar flavor lingering on them which I wonder if its related to the yeast.

I had a malfunction on one of our first few beers where the temp probe was plugged into the port of an unused fermenter and the fermentation temps (in our 63 degree basement in the winter mind you) were allowed to rise.. The beer fermented in 2 days and had to sit a month even though it was an ale just to get rid of the sulfur smell and off flavors as a result. when it was servable it was good but not at all the same as the recipe normally comes out. you can get a drastic difference in flavor from only a few degrees difference and dont go by the temp range on the packets of yeast.. the yeast may thrive at a higher temp but thats not always where you want to be if you want a clean flavor prfile.. if your looking for more flavor from the yeast then sure.

gotcha. I stick with fermentis brand yeasts . Theyre just more predictable to me after using a few . But the other day our high of the day was a heat index of 100+ and in the basement I keep a few thermometers up in my brew area. the one up about 6 ft read 78* while the other one right next to the carboy read more like 72* ,so I didnt panic yet. Our regular beer supply is getting low and I have 3 ,maybe 4 I can brew at any time. Wifes Hef (it'll be the first time brewing that again), a Dunkelweizen , an extract Kolsch and another entire grain ingredient supply for another Gose(sons watermelon gose is finishing up ) , thinking of using the blackberries ive been picking in our yard to make that.

 

[augiedoggy]

i should clarify that because the example I mentioned above was 3 barrels of beer in the fermenter, temps climb more than they would on a 5 or 10 gallon batch but the principal still rings true.

 

[brewbama]

... and dont go by the temp range on the packets of yeast...

Ya know, I’ve heard that advice on homebrew forums for years. No disrespect to you augiedoggy, maybe you’re repeating what you’ve read. ...but don’t fall for it.

[rant] (not intended at any one person)

The OEM has tested and evaluated their products and stake their reputation and very business on the recommended use of that product. It’s not like they’re withholding the secret keys to the successful use of their product from its customers. “I know what the package says, but here’s the real deal for maximum performance.” What would be the business sense in that?

No, they actually want each and every use of their product to get superior results so they test and recommend based on empirical data. They give us the secret keys to the successful use of their products.

Don’t fall for some amateur Internet forum wive’s tale based on ‘I did X once and everything turned out just fine so that’s how I do it all the time’. Sure, if it inadvertently happens it’ll probably be fine. But intentionally ignoring and exceeding limits as standing operating procedure is not a best practice in any undertaking IMO.

Example: I had a leak at the spigot in my fermenter once. Using bacterial soup and Iodophor, I surgically scoured and sanitized my hand and arm, reached in and tighten the backing nut. Beer turned out great. Does that mean I go jamming my arm in every brew as a personal best practice because I got away with it in an emergency that produced great beer once? No! What sense would that make?

Limits are there for a reason: to protect the consumer by providing superior, long term, tried and true results based on ‘run to fail’ data. Use any product outside the OEM recommendations at your own risk.

[/rant]

The better advice IMO: If more pronounced character is desired: use the product within the upper limits of the recommended range. If more subdued results are desired: use the product within the lower limits of the recommended range.

 

[augiedoggy]

No offence taken, when I first started brewing Iused the temp range on the packets and while it made beer quickly, there were often unwanted flavors in the beers which later I learned were from fermenting at the upper range of what was listed on the packets. Unless I'm looking for extra character from the yeast in my beers I ferment at the lower end of the ale and lager spectrum for cleaner flavor. You've basically reworded my advice already but I will add that if you split a batch in two and ferment one at the low end and the other at the high end you will get a good idea of how much impact your really making and I'll go out on a limb here and add many homebrewers whi are not happy with the outcome of thier homebrewing may find it's because they just use the temp range on the packet of yeast as being all they need to go by and I'm sorry but theres a difference between the thriving temp of the yeast and what flavors most people want out of them. The folks in the lab leave that up to the brewer to determine.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

I'm not a fan of ice baths. I used them for 1 gallon batches back when I first started stovetop brewing and it seemed to take too long.

 

[bleme]

I get free ice from work so I have used ice baths (more ice than bath) on 5 gallon batches. It takes about 15 minutes to go from boiling to 60F if I stir the whole time, which isn't bad, but still 3 times longer than a good IC.

 

[Alan Hogue]

have you looked into ready made brew kits ,might find a package deal for less instead of piecing it out . If youre looking for a yeast that will work in warmer climates...may try Mangrove Jacks...I might be getting some to try myself , I saw one goes up to 88*F . I was like, wow, thats warm. My basement usually stays cool but this week its pushing upper 70s . Either I stop brewing until it cools off or I try different yeast.

The kits tend to be a little more basic than I want. I really want something like fermonsters with a wide opening and a spigot to avoid any siphoning (and being transparent is also nice). Also would like to avoid using one of those hand cappers most kits come with. But it's a good point, perhaps some shop somewhere sells a kit that fits those reqs for less money. I'll look around a bit.

Had not heard of Mangrove Jacks, but I certainly will give it a try.

 

[Alan Hogue]

I get free ice from work so I have used ice baths (more ice than bath) on 5 gallon batches. It takes about 15 minutes to go from boiling to 60F if I stir the whole time, which isn't bad, but still 3 times longer than a good IC.

I used to do an ice bath with 5 gallon batches and I didn't like it. To me, any time you have 41 lbs of boiling liquid, the less you have to move it around the better. And yes, the time to get it down to temp seemed too long. On top of that it can be really awkward depending on the size and type of sink you have.

I think those issues will be mitigated by the half size batches. I did end up using an immersion chiller but honestly the flagrant waste of water bothered me and it still took a long time. I know people swear by certain models, but if I can avoid them I'd like to. So I'm going to start with an ice bath and we'll see if I change my mind.

(Also, as a side note, I am a little skeptical that a strong cold break is all that essential. I suppose one could use finings to give it a boost anyway. Could be wrong.)

 

[bleme]

I always use whirlfloc now (unless I forget), even though I honestly can't tell a difference in the beers without it. I figure it is cheap and can't hurt...

My ice bath utilizes either a big rope tub or a rolling ice chest. Either are portable, fit my kettle easily, and can be dumped on the lawn when I'm done.

 

[RPh_Guy]

1 Refractometer - Dual... $ 59.99

I highly recommend a hydrometer. I would skip the refractometer.

You have some kind of scale?
How about an auto-siphon?
You should also get some 5/16" tubing for a blow-off tube.
Make sure the tubing you get fits the spigots.

 

[Alan Hogue]

I highly recommend a hydrometer. I would skip the refractometer.

You have some kind of scale?
How about an auto-siphon?
You should also get some 5/16" tubing for a blow-off tube.
Make sure the tubing you get fits the spigots.

Why would you prefer a hydrometer over a refractometer?

I have a scale that I think will work. Everything has spigots, so I don't think I'll need to siphon... well except for the kettle which is just a normal pot.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A hydrometer actually measures what you want to measure, the density.
A refractometer doesn't read density correctly with alcohol present. You have to run the reading through a conversion, with questionable accuracy.

Then there's the cost.

 

[Soulshine2]

The kits tend to be a little more basic than I want. I really want something like fermonsters with a wide opening and a spigot to avoid any siphoning (and being transparent is also nice). Also would like to avoid using one of those hand cappers most kits come with. But it's a good point, perhaps some shop somewhere sells a kit that fits those reqs for less money. I'll look around a bit.

Had not heard of Mangrove Jacks, but I certainly will give it a try.

about the hand capper...As much as Ive been looking for a bench capper, my little red baron capper is still the champ. unless you mean you want to keg.
i second the hydrometer.

 

[bleme]

I got my hand capper with the beginners kit and it still works great. My wife picked up a bench capper at a yard sale for $5 and I like it too. Which one I use, depends on how much help I have on bottling day. I can usually cap faster with the wing capper but if I am flying solo, I can fill with one hand and bench cap with the other.

I'll 'third' the hydrometer, although you will probably end up with both.