First Sour, How do I start?

[wiescins]

I've been getting into sours and think i'm finally ready to make my own, where do I start? I'm I have once used 5.5gal whiskey barrel that I would like to include and I'm thinking blueberrys as my fruit. For the base beer something of an old ale @ ~10%. Once I have my cooled wort, what next?

 

[spenghali]

It will be hard for you to accomplish that with your first sour beer. The limitations of the bugs from the high abv will be difficult to overcome without advanced techniques. Maybe try something a little more simple for your first go at it.

 

[urbanmyth]

I would pick up a copy of Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow before trying any sours of your own.

Having read it, I would suggest something a lot simpler than a high abv old ale. Something along the lines of 1.045. 80% Pils, 15% wheat and 5% CaraRed or some similar low crystal malt. Hop to 20ish IBU with something like Styrian Goldings or Hallertau. Pitch Wyeast Roeselare Blend in primary if you are looking for really funky, or use the blend in secondary after a primary with a clean ale yeast.

 

[bellmtbbq]

I think the easiest way, if you can do AG, is 67% Pilsner or base 2 row, 33% raw, unmalted, or flaked wheat, do a normal single infusion mash, take tons of runnings, boil for two hours with some aged or baked hops (you dont want any flavor/bittering from the hop, just the preservatives. ) Ferment with US-05 all the way down to FG, pitch Roselare yeast, or Wyeast's Lambic with Belgian beer dregs, and let it sit for 6-9 months. A really good lambic.

 

[wiescins]

So I should try a smaller beer, i can do that. I would still like to use the whiskey and blue berrys. When do i add them? I'm thinking ferment until complete in glass with 1056, then rack to secondary and add wyeasts lambic with blueberry juice, then send it to the whiskey barrel?

 

[bellmtbbq]

Sounds good. Blueberrys are used by some lambic producers. Ferment out and rack into the whiskey barrel and add wyeast roselare (similar to wyeast lambic but better) Lambic makers use old wine barrels, so it's appropriate to use a barrel. But two words of caution:

1. You will never be able to use the barrel for anythin but sours. It's good since you'll build
Up microflora in that barrel over uses that will
Make your sours better, but anything else will be infected.

2. The other problem with small barrels are the staves are smaller, allowing for more oxygen permeability then a 100 gal barrel. That's good to some level, but if you leave it in there for more then six months it will turn to vinegar basically.

Ferment, rack to barrel, add bugs, rack back to carboy in four-six months on top of frozen blueberries (kill bacteria), and let it age for another 2-6 months. Remember to have another batch ready to go immediately into the barrel once you rack out of it so it doesn't dry up. Have fun and let me know!

 

[wiescins]

Very helpful, thank you. So I had my steps a little out if sequence.

1) ferment wort as normal in glass carboy
2) rack to whiskey barrel and add sour bugs
3) rack back to glass carboy onto frozen blueberrys
4) bottle as normal

 

[JollyIsTheRoger]

Very helpful, thank you. So I had my steps a little out if sequence.

1) ferment wort as normal in glass carboy
2) rack to whiskey barrel and add sour bugs
3) rack back to glass carboy onto frozen blueberrys
4) bottle as normal

Just make absolutely sure that it is done fermenting. The brett and bacteria will ferment more sugars than the normal sacc yeast and at a slower rate. Make sure your gravity readings are steady for about a month before bottling or you could get bottle bombs as they continue to ferment.

 

[bellmtbbq]

Yea, always bottle a little below where you want to be because there's almost always a little more fermentation to be done

 

[wiescins]

I've read that a sour can easily end around 1.000, I'm assuming that is why the long rest period in carboy before bottling.

A little history in the barrel. It's a rye whiskey barrel that we have has for a while. It dried out on us before we added anything. Rehydrated it with water, then recharged it with rye whiskey. Then we had a rye porter in it for 11wks. Right now it is filled with water until we decide what to do next.

I'm thinking a 10gal of something around 1.070 so we have something to blend back in if needed. Is too high gravity?

 

[BenWillcox]

That gravity is fine for a straight sour like a flanders red (though that is out of style, but then so is Oude tarte), or an aged pale. If you are adding fruit though that is probably a bit much. Most fruit lambics have an O.G. to the base beer somewhere close to the neighborhood of 1.051 or so. You typically are adding somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 pounds a gallon or so of fruit to get a good fruit character. That of course adds a not insignificant amount of fermentables all on its own.

 

[wiescins]

That gravity is fine for a straight sour like a flanders red (though that is out of style, but then so is Oude tarte), or an aged pale. If you are adding fruit though that is probably a bit much. Most fruit lambics have an O.G. to the base beer somewhere close to the neighborhood of 1.051 or so. You typically are adding somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 pounds a gallon or so of fruit to get a good fruit character. That of course adds a not insignificant amount of fermentables all on its own.

Whoa. I was thinking on the order of 2lbs of blueberries. Is that way off? I don't think I can afford to use 10lbs of blueberries on a 5gal batch of beer.

 

[wiescins]

Would this be considered high ABV for a sour (details below)? If it is, what are some of the more complicated actions needed to make it happen? I typically do higher gravity stuff with my non-sour brewing, so I think I'm capable of managing it, but not sure if I'm totally missing something.

Brew Day
Brew 7gal of 1.064 OG wort, set aside 1gal for future starters, ferment 6gal with Wyeast 1056 with estimated FG of 1.015 (6.5% ABV)

Rack Day
Rack 1.015 beer to Whiskey barrel, add starters (using wort from brew day) of Wyeast 5526 & 5335. Age for 2-6 months, checking for 4wks of stable gravity, expected FG of 1.000 (8.5% ABV)

Rack Day
Rack 1.000 beer to glass carboy onto 2lbs of frozen blueberries. Age for 4-6 months, checking for 4wks of stable gravity, expected gravity boost of 0.003 from blueberries, expected FG back to 1.000 (8.9% ABV)

Bottle Day
Bottle as normal when gravity is stable and taste is ready

I'm getting super excited to do this and I've only been looking at it seriously for a day now.

 

[BenWillcox]

Okay first things first:

Most fruit lambics use somewhere on the order of 1-2+ pounds of fruit per gallon to get their fruit character. with 2 pounds in a 5 gallon batch it will be vaguelly pinkish lambic with little to no fruit character (Blueberries, contrary to what one might think are actually a more subtle flavor).

You will get much more sourness and lambic character (sour, funk, etc) by pitching a lambic blend or all your "bugs" in primary along with your main strain of yeast; it won't hurt anything.

2 months in secondary isn't going to happen, no way no how. I am very tempted to say that 6 months isn't going to happen either but you did say you were using a 5 gallon barrel and they do let WAY more oxygen in than a 55er. That may speed things up a bit, I am not sure. But I would say that if you are very lucky you are looking at 6 months (sours usually take around a year).

 

[wiescins]

Okay first things first:

Most fruit lambics use somewhere on the order of 1-2+ pounds of fruit per gallon to get their fruit character. with 2 pounds in a 5 gallon batch it will be vaguelly pinkish lambic with little to no fruit character (Blueberries, contrary to what one might think are actually a more subtle flavor).

You will get much more sourness and lambic character (sour, funk, etc) by pitching a lambic blend or all your "bugs" in primary along with your main strain of yeast; it won't hurt anything.

2 months in secondary isn't going to happen, no way no how. I am very tempted to say that 6 months isn't going to happen either but you did say you were using a 5 gallon barrel and they do let WAY more oxygen in than a 55er. That may speed things up a bit, I am not sure. But I would say that if you are very lucky you are looking at 6 months (sours usually take around a year).

Sounds like I need to rethink my blueberry piece, not sure I want to invest in 5-10lbs for my first go at this.

On the "bugs", If I pitch directly to primary, do I still need the Wyeast 1056? I want the sour to be more prominate than Whiskey. This logic makes me want to do a extra long primary with just Brett/Lacto (8-12wks?), then rack to the barrel.

Gotcha on the barrel timing, I read the 2-6 months someplace, I can be patient and wait 6-12 months. The barrel is more than 5gal, but less than 6gal.

I'm thinking that if I don't add blueberries then I may not age in the glass after the barrel, unless the whiskey is getting too strong, then I can rack and rest in glass until ready to bottle.

 

[JollyIsTheRoger]

Sounds like I need to rethink my blueberry piece, not sure I want to invest in 5-10lbs for my first go at this.

On the "bugs", If I pitch directly to primary, do I still need the Wyeast 1056? I want the sour to be more prominate than Whiskey. This logic makes me want to do a extra long primary with just Brett/Lacto (8-12wks?), then rack to the barrel.

Gotcha on the barrel timing, I read the 2-6 months someplace, I can be patient and wait 6-12 months. The barrel is more than 5gal, but less than 6gal.

I'm thinking that if I don't add blueberries then I may not age in the glass after the barrel, unless the whiskey is getting too strong, then I can rack and rest in glass until ready to bottle.

Upland brewing in Indiana has said they use 5# of fruit per gallon in their lambics, which is an insane amount, but they are delicious so I won't argue.

Instead of 6-12 months, assume 12-18 and if it gets done early, bonus.