First Runnings Carmelization in IPA

[HollywoodTK]

Hi team!

I'd like to experiment a little with carmelization, and I'd like to do it in an IPA.

I'm not 100% sure of my prospective grain bill yet, but it will likely be MO base, with some amber/vienna/munich, not sure yet. Regardless, I want a bit of that malty, toffee flavoring that people shoot for when carmelizing wort in Scottish ales and porters and what not.

Has anyone boiled down a portion of their first runnings in an IPA? I'm just looking for confirmation (or negation) that the sort of flavor one gets from boiling down runnings works well with the IPA style.

I do mostly 2.75 gallon batches, and so I would probably collect ~3 quarts or so and reduce down to syrup before adding back into the boil.

Thanks much!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

... Regardless, I want a bit of that malty, toffee flavoring that people shoot for when carmelizing wort in Scottish ales and porters and what not.

..... I'm just looking for confirmation (or negation) that the sort of flavor one gets from boiling down runnings works well with the IPA style.

Those two statements are sort of mutually exclusive. Carmelization and malty, toffee flavors don't work well with an IPA style if you go by the BJCP description of an IPA. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it. As long as you're not entering any competitions with it, what have you got to lose. To each his own. Go for it.

 

[Calichusetts]

Its going to be sweeter and probably finish a few points higher than normal. If you really dig the dry finish of an IPA this won't help. I do it in barleywines and scotch ales, but not much else.

 

[Bosh]

Would try that thing in an APA more than an IPA. Really enjoy a nice malty pale ale.

 

[HollywoodTK]

Those two statements are sort of mutually exclusive. Carmelization and malty, toffee flavors don't work well with an IPA style if you go by the BJCP description of an IPA. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it. As long as you're not entering any competitions with it, what have you got to lose. To each his own. Go for it.

Well, that's basically the question I have. I know it's not quantifiable, but I'd like to know people's experiences with it in lighter styles (not necessarily IPA, for instance) where the process made a distinct difference in your typical, expected taste.

I don't want to go overboard and have a hoppy syrup, but if it adds a strong malty backbone to balance the hop bite (I would anticipate going relatively high on the IBU's for this one) then I'd be happy. I think BJCP is pretty tolerant about having a strong malt profile to balance the hop bitterness, and it even says that caramel may be present.

If it's going to really add a strong caramel/toffee flavor, then maybe I'll forgo it, or just practice the process by doing it on a very small portion...

 

[Calichusetts]

I think you would want to do this with a more subtle base malt...like a pale ale malt, preferable american. I think if you do a 100% MO IPA you are already getting a decent backbone, by carmelizing it, you take it over the top. With a lighter more subtle base malt, the carmelization will help get you strong notes but maybe more balanced.

I don't know how much actual feedback you are going to get on this as its a pretty unusual for an IPA or lighter style. Definitely want to here your results though.

 

[m00ps]

I agree with the others. This goes against the entire reason I would drink an IPA. Its hop centric and very dry. This would basically turn it into a hoppy Barleywine from the increase in OG from reduction and increase in FG resulting in sweetness

 

[HollywoodTK]

Hmmm, thanks for all the replies.

Well, the question remains, how much caramel/toffee would one expect? I know that too much of these flavors is against the BJCP guidlelines, however the guidelines state that caramel flavors are acceptable at low levels. Additionally, I'm not interested in brewing a straight-and-narrow IPA in this instance, some of my brews I like to experiment a little bit. But as noted, if the effect will be overpowering or unpleasant in a lighter bodied ale, then I'd like to take steps to mitigate those factors (less volume reduced, for instance).

A couple follow up questions, though, besides the main "how much would a small portion of reduced first runnings affect the caramel flavor of the finished beer?"

If the caramelized wort is returned to the boil with the same volume of liquid which was boiled off during the caramelization, then I don't see the OG rising any higher than it would otherwise be, no?
And unless the caramelization process somehow converts the sugars into unfermentables, how would it affect FG?

 

[m00ps]

Hmmm, thanks for all the replies.

Well, the question remains, how much caramel/toffee would one expect? I know that too much of these flavors is against the BJCP guidlelines, however the guidelines state that caramel flavors are acceptable at low levels. Additionally, I'm not interested in brewing a straight-and-narrow IPA in this instance, some of my brews I like to experiment a little bit. But as noted, if the effect will be overpowering or unpleasant in a lighter bodied ale, then I'd like to take steps to mitigate those factors (less volume reduced, for instance).

A couple follow up questions, though, besides the main "how much would a small portion of reduced first runnings affect the caramel flavor of the finished beer?"

If the caramelized wort is returned to the boil with the same volume of liquid which was boiled off during the caramelization, then I don't see the OG rising any higher than it would otherwise be, no?
And unless the caramelization process somehow converts the sugars into unfermentables, how would it affect FG?

Not sure as to the first question since I've only done this twice and didnt have a "control" to compare against. I would assume it just added more caramel character like if i had included more cara/crystal malts

The sugar calculation should be the same if you have the same overall volume when all is said and done. The FG should be higher though, resulting in the perceived sweetness

 

[filthyastronaut]

If you make an all base malt brew, the result would be quite similar to the addition of crystal malts, probably less danger of being cloying. There are a great many commercial IPAs that are fantastic but are malty as hell, such as Titan IPA or Bittersweet Lenny's. There is a very unique type of flavor that occurs with a super hopped malty beer, and there is a lot of dogma against it. If you like malt, do it, and do it again if you like the result. There is enough room in the brewing world for malty IPAs, they do not threaten the existence of "proper" dry hopbomb IPAs.