first running/ double mash

[solo103]

Whats up guys,

I plan on doing a first running's Double mash Imperial stout in the next few weeks and was wondering if a few on here have done this before and could help with some advice. My plan is to dough in on around 25lbs of grain at 1.5 qts per lb mash for 60 min then run all that wort off dump the mash and repeat the process a 2nd time to give me my total pre boil volume of 8.75-9 gallons for a 6 gallon batch (120 min boil). My question is I'm trying to figure out a way to roughly calculate my running's so I can start to formulate a recipe but beer smith, wich is the program I use doesn't have a way to do this and most of the literature I've found when looking up first running beers always adds the total volume of water (sparge water included) like you were doing brew in the bag or something similar wich is not what I'm trying to accomplish here. I'm not sparging or using the total amount of water to make up one full volume batch. I'm strictly using the first and only runnings of each of the 2 mashes to make up my full volume. I guess it similar to a partigyle except I don't really have the capacity to do a 2nd beer (unless I could get some friends with some more equipment to come through). Any thoughts, ideas or tips from anyone who has done this before? cheers

 

[broadbill]

Parti-glye calcs is the best way to approximate this. Not sure BS has that.

rough #s:
25lbs of grain x1.5qts/lb is 37.5qts = 9.375 gallons.
assuming a grain absorb of .15gal/lb = 3.75 gallons.
assuming no MT dead space first runnings should be 9.375-3.75 =5.6 gallons x2 batches =11.2 gallons of first runnings total..

Also note you are going to be using 50lbs of grain for a 6 gallon batch, AND only using first runnings. That first gravity will be, uh, high.

 

[broadbill]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

 

[doug293cz]

You can also use this calculator (I know it's called a BIAB calculator, but it's much more than that now.)

Just put in numbers for 1/2 a batch. Something like:

Batch Size: 3 gal
Grain Bill: 25 lb
Hop Bill: 2 oz
Length of Boil: 120 min
Boil Off Rate: 0.75 gal/hr
Grain Absorption: 0.12 gal/lb
Hop Absorption: 0.04 gal/lb
Mash Tun Losses: 0.25 gal (or whatever yours really is)
Mash Thickness: 0 qt/lb (this will use target pre-boil volume to calc mash thickness)
Sparge Volume: 0 gal
Expected Conversion Efficiency: 95%
Sparge Coefficient: 100%​

For two batches, this will get you 9 gal pre-boil & 6 gal post boil. Mash thickness to get your desired volumes is 1.25 qt/lb.

Predicted mash efficiency is only 46.7%. Yikes! You might want to thing about party-gyle to recover some of that wasted sugar. Predicted pre-boil SG is 1.091, and predicted OG is 1.134.

Brew on

 

[solo103]

Parti-glye calcs is the best way to approximate this. Not sure BS has that.

rough #s:
25lbs of grain x1.5qts/lb is 37.5qts = 9.375 gallons.
assuming a grain absorb of .15gal/lb = 3.75 gallons.
assuming no MT dead space first runnings should be 9.375-3.75 =5.6 gallons x2 batches =11.2 gallons of first runnings total..

Also note you are going to be using 50lbs of grain for a 6 gallon batch, AND only using first runnings. That first gravity will be, uh, high.

Cool. Ive done the water calculations like you've done above except I added in the MT dead space. Do you know a formula that would approximate the gravity of those running's?

Yeah its going to be a very high starting gravity. Aiming for around 1.150 -1.160 with a finishing gravity around 1.065

 

[solo103]

You can also use this calculator (I know it's called a BIAB calculator, but it's much more than that now.)

Just put in numbers for 1/2 a batch. Something like:

Batch Size: 3 gal
Grain Bill: 25 lb
Hop Bill: 2 oz
Length of Boil: 120 min
Boil Off Rate: 0.75 gal/hr
Grain Absorption: 0.12 gal/lb
Hop Absorption: 0.04 gal/lb
Mash Tun Losses: 0.25 gal (or whatever yours really is)
Mash Thickness: 0 qt/lb (this will use target pre-boil volume to calc mash thickness)
Sparge Volume: 0 gal
Expected Conversion Efficiency: 95%
Sparge Coefficient: 100%​

For two batches, this will get you 9 gal pre-boil & 6 gal post boil. Mash thickness to get your desired volumes is 1.25 qt/lb.

Predicted mash efficiency is only 46.7%. Yikes! You might want to thing about party-gyle to recover some of that wasted sugar. Predicted pre-boil SG is 1.091, and predicted OG is 1.134.

Brew on

I would like to Parti Gyle but I don't think I'll have the equipment to

 

[imasickboy]

Cool. Ive done the water calculations like you've done above except I added in the MT dead space. Do you know a formula that would approximate the gravity of those running's?

Yeah its going to be a very high starting gravity. Aiming for around 1.150 -1.160 with a finishing gravity around 1.065

Do you seriously want to finish at 65 points?

That's CRAZY high. Ridiculously sweet. And still only roughly 12% ABV.

120 points OG and 30 points FG is roughly the same ABV, and would be a much more palatable stout, IMO. Cheaper, too.

 

[solo103]

Do you seriously want to finish at 65 points?

That's CRAZY high. Ridiculously sweet. And still only roughly 12% ABV.

120 points OG and 30 points FG is roughly the same ABV, and would be a much more palatable stout, IMO. Cheaper, too.

Yeah. I brew a ton of stouts and want to try a even higher finishing gravity then normal. Last Imperial milk stout I did (just won Gold at the sunshine challenge ) started at 1.132 and finished at 1.050 but it had a 1lb of lactose in it. I want to go a bit higher on both the starting and finishing gravity but get all the sugars from the malt and use only the first runnings so it doesn't dilute it at all. A few brewers have told me they use this method (starting high and finishing high, although maybe not 1.060) when doing big Imperial Stouts.

I know stouts like CCB Marshal Zhukov is done with this type of method

 

[tylerb]

Don't start over with fresh water. Take your first running and use those to mash your second 25 lbs. That might leave you some water volume to make up by sparging and up your efficiency.

There is an episode on Brewers Network that explains the process and how to calculate your estimated gravity:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-triple-mashing/

They actually mashed three times, but the process is the same.