First BIAB, Please help with process

[BrewByBerg]

Can someone check through my all-grain BIAB thinking for a 10gal brew kettle?

With a 13.5lb grain bill, I'm going to need about 1.25 qt/lb of mash water, bringing my brew kettle up to a little more than 4 gallons of water... But after mashing, it's going to lose about a gallon or 2 to absorption by the grain. So now down to around 2.5 or 3 gallons

I plan on doing a sparge with 170 degree water by pouring over my bag of grain until the grain is dripping clear water. Now is there a specific amount of water I have to use when I sparge or can I just make sure I try and get as much sugar off the grain as possible to up my efficiency?? I need to get to a pre boil volume of around 6.5gal due to boil off so I can have a 5.25 gal final volume. If sparging only takes a couple gallons of water to complete, Should i just pull the bag and pour the remaining water into the kettle to achieve my 6.5gal pre boil volume?

Does this all sound right and doable?

Schedule

-Add 1.25qt/per lb of grain = 4.25gal @152 for 60 min

-after 60 min, pull bag and let runnings drip

-pour 2 or remaining gal of 170 degree water over grain until clear drippings

-final pre boil volume is reached at 6.5gal then boil begins

Any input on this method would be great, I'm just trying to figure out if pouring the heated water over the grain is the best way to sparge on my first BIAB batch.

Thanks

 

[BrewByBerg]

Also, if I plan on mashing at 152 for a little dry ipa at 1.067 OG, what should my water temp be before I add the grain, 158 degrees?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would suggest a full volume mash, or a smaller sparge.

A pour over sparge is more of an adjustment step, rather than trying to pour over 40-50% total water... seems excessive.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I agree with wilserbrewer. Either mash full volume, as it looks like you should have plenty of room or go ahead and do a small sparge, say 1-2 gallons, which would add some extra efficiency points. No need to get all caught up with water/grain ratios.

Update: Okay, just ran a quick calc in BeerSmith...

You'll need a total of 7.98 gallons of water (call it 8.0). Pre-boil volume should be ~6.7, assuming 1.25 g/hr boil off.

A full volume mash is going to be pushing it a bit (9.03 mash volume), but should be easily doable. If going with this, you would dough in @ 157 to achieve 152.

If you want to add a sparge to increase efficiency, then hold back a gallon of water for the sparge and dough in @ 157.8 (call it 158). Also, you don't need to heat your sparge water. It'll make no difference in the OG, so just wait to heat it until after it's in the kettle, unless you need something to do while waiting for the mash and you feel like heating sparge water, then by all means, do so.

Grain absorption is calculated @ .75 fl oz water per 1 oz of grain = 1.27 gal. This will require a little bit of squeezing to hit your pre-boil volume, but not that much.

Since it's your first go with BIAB, measure all your volumes carefully and take both pre-boil & post boil gravity readings and write them down. This will allow you to make adjustments as needed to dial in the process for your next brew.

 

[BrewByBerg]

I agree with wilserbrewer. Either mash full volume, as it looks like you should have plenty of room or go ahead and do a small sparge, say 1-2 gallons, which would add some extra efficiency points. No need to get all caught up with water/grain ratios.

But let's say I sparge 1-2 gallons of water,but I haven't hit my pre boil volume...then what

 

[LLBeanJ]

Squeeze the bag a bit more. The idea is to calculate everything correctly before you start so that mash + sparge = pre-boil right on the money. Use the numbers I gave you (see my update to previous post) and you will be very close.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I use BeerSmith to get my volumes and temps, but there are other ways if you don't have it. Take a look at Priceless' calculator. It's very simple to use. It's not going to match BeerSmith perfectly, but it will also get you inside the ball park.

 

[wilserbrewer]

But let's say I sparge 1-2 gallons of water,but I haven't hit my pre boil volume...then what

Umm sparge more! I always think to sparge to reach volume, rather than a calculated amount.

JMO, but I think what you actually have in the kettle is more important than what a calculator says you "should" have....

 

[BeerLoverHere]

Instead of "squeezing the bag" I would get another pound or two of your base malt in your recipe to increase your efficiency (it's an IPA anyways so more sugar is better!!!). BIAB has poor efficiency and if you try to extract more sugars from your grain by "squeezing" you will get tannins/mouth puckering dry feel in the finish/aftertaste of your beer. You can squeeze, but gently and not for long/too often. I would also maybe just add a little more water instead of squeezing the last little bit to hit your volume of H2O that you need. That's just my two cents. However, since you are making an IPA your bitterness will cover up these tannins some and won't be as noticeable if you do get some in there from squeezing the bag.

I'd mash @ 150 for an IPA. 152 isn't too far away though so that is trivial.

I'd also suggest to heat up your strike water to 5 degrees higher than what you think you'll need. If you mash in high, it won't hurt it for long. You can always decrease your mash temps easier than raising them. Not sure of your set-up, just my two cents. Make sure your grain is at room temperature. Don't keep in the garage in the winter or you'll mash in WAY lower than your calculations indicate. I've made that mistake before.

 

[Gavin C]

I would echo the more knowledgable contributors on this thread in that with a 10 gallon pot you have the room you need for a full volume mash. This is what a typical mash looks like for me in my 10 gallon mega pot with approx 11 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch

Forget the water to grain ratio. That is for traditional all-grain mashing not usually applicable to BIAB.

There are some good pictorials in the BIAB forum. They will help you get a better handle on the technique

 

[LLBeanJ]

BIAB has poor efficiency...

As compared to what? With BIAB 80-85% is the norm, particularly if a small sparge is employed.

...and if you try to extract more sugars from your grain by "squeezing" you will get tannins/mouth puckering dry feel in the finish/aftertaste of your beer.

Not so unless pH is out of whack (6.0+) and grain temp is >170F, otherwise you can squeeze until you are blue in the face and no tannins.

I'd also suggest to heat up your strike water to 5 degrees higher than what you think you'll need. If you mash in high, it won't hurt it for long. You can always decrease your mash temps easier than raising them.

Actually, with BIAB, I'd suggest going a couple degrees lower than needed. Much easier to fire up the burner and add a little heat than stirring/waiting for mash temp to drop. Six of one, half dozen of the other, though, really.

Keep in mind that we're talking BIAB process here. While it's technically no different than mashing in a cooler, the fact that the mash tun (aka boil kettle) is direct fired gives a bit more flexibility with respect to manipulating mash temp.

 

[Gavin C]

I would disregard Beerloverhere's statement. Grossly inaccurate in fact and theory.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

Instead of "squeezing the bag" I would get another pound or two of your base malt in your recipe to increase your efficiency (it's an IPA anyways so more sugar is better!!!). BIAB has poor efficiency and if you try to extract more sugars from your grain by "squeezing" you will get tannins/mouth puckering dry feel in the finish/aftertaste of your beer. You can squeeze, but gently and not for long/too often. I would also maybe just add a little more water instead of squeezing the last little bit to hit your volume of H2O that you need. That's just my two cents. However, since you are making an IPA your bitterness will cover up these tannins some and won't be as noticeable if you do get some in there from squeezing the bag.

I'd mash @ 150 for an IPA. 152 isn't too far away though so that is trivial.

I'd also suggest to heat up your strike water to 5 degrees higher than what you think you'll need. If you mash in high, it won't hurt it for long. You can always decrease your mash temps easier than raising them. Not sure of your set-up, just my two cents. Make sure your grain is at room temperature. Don't keep in the garage in the winter or you'll mash in WAY lower than your calculations indicate. I've made that mistake before.

Huh? squeezing will get you tannins? FALSE
Heat up strike water to 5 degrees higher? FALSE
I'm not gonna comment any further on this guys comments.

 

[BrewByBerg]

I would echo the more knowledgable contributors on this thread in that with a 10 gallon pot you have the room you need for a full volume mash. This is what a typical mash looks like for me in my 10 gallon mega pot with approx 11 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch

Forget the water to grain ratio. That is for traditional all-grain mashing not usually applicable to BIAB.

There are some good pictorials in the BIAB forum. They will help you get a better handle on the technique

If I go a full volume mash for a 5.5 gal with 13.5lb of grains then what should my total volume of h20 be?

 

[BrewByBerg]

I would echo the more knowledgable contributors on this thread in that with a 10 gallon pot you have the room you need for a full volume mash. This is what a typical mash looks like for me in my 10 gallon mega pot with approx 11 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch

Forget the water to grain ratio. That is for traditional all-grain mashing not usually applicable to BIAB.

There are some good pictorials in the BIAB forum. They will help you get a better handle on the technique

I would echo the more knowledgable contributors on this thread in that with a 10 gallon pot you have the room you need for a full volume mash. This is what a typical mash looks like for me in my 10 gallon mega pot with approx 11 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch

Forget the water to grain ratio. That is for traditional all-grain mashing not usually applicable to BIAB.

There are some good pictorials in the BIAB forum. They will help you get a better handle on the technique

If I go a full volume mash for a 5.5 gal with 13.5lb of grains then what should my total volume of h20 be?

 

[LLBeanJ]

For 5.5g in the fermenter, go with 8.25 total and 7.0 pre-boil. You'll boil off about 1.25 and lose another .25 to shrinkage after cooling (insert Seinfeld joke here), leaving you with 5.5.

 

[BrewByBerg]

For 5.5g in the fermenter, go with 8.25 total and 7.0 pre-boil. You'll boil off about 1.25 and lose another .25 to shrinkage after cooling (insert Seinfeld joke here), leaving you with 5.5.

So all 8.25 gallons right at about 155 degrees, add in the grain, mash for 1 hour, pull out and rinse with 1-2 gallons 170 degrees sparge water, then begin boil as followed with 7 gallons?

Sorry, it is my first BIAB, and I just like reassurance. Thanks so much again for the help

 

[Gavin C]

No to the rinsing or sparging of the grain with a full volume mash. As the name suggests all the water is put in the pot at the start. No additional rinsing of the grains are done.

If you sparge with an additional 1-2 gallons after you have already got 8 gallons for the mash you will have much too much water and your volumes will be wrong.

If you want to sparge you can do that but with a 10 gallon pot a no sparge approach is arguably simpler and more of a traditional BIAB. (Not that tradition matters). With a sparge you would sparge until you have reached your desired pre-boil volume as previously outlined

 

[BrewByBerg]

No to the rinsing or sparging of the grain with a full volume mash. As the name suggests all the water is put in the pot at the start. No additional rinsing of the grains are done.



If you sparge with an additional 1-2 gallons after you have already got 8 gallons for the mash you will have much too much water and your volumes will be wrong.



If you want to sparge you can do that but with a 10 gallon pot a no sparge approach is arguably simpler and more of a traditional BIAB. (Not that tradition matters). With a sparge you would sparge until you have reached your desired pre-boil volume as previously outlined

Okay. So just pour in all 8.25 gallons of water, mash at 150, so make the pre temp 155? Then mash for 1 hour, pull bag and begin boil? Sounds easy enoufh

 

[BrewByBerg]

Attached is my grain recipe, I added .25 of carapils. Should I up anything else like 2 row to maybe up the efficiency or just keep it at that

 

[BrewByBerg]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420782868.445733.jpg

 

[FatDragon]

Okay. So just pour in all 8.25 gallons of water, mash at 150, so make the pre temp 155? Then mash for 1 hour, pull bag and begin boil? Sounds easy enoufh

Don't forget to drain the bag. Depending on your setup, you can drain directly into the kettle or you may have to drain into another vessel and transfer the drained wort back into the kettle. Squeezing the bag is optional, but will give you more wort and thus better efficiency.

Personally, while my first couple BIAB batches were full-volume, I prefer to reserve a couple gallons of water for cold water sparging. I get all the conversion I need in the mash, so sparge water temp doesn't really matter to me, it's just rinsing the sugars out of the grain bag. Cold water is easier because it cools down the grain in the bag, making it easier and less-painful to squeeze the bag for some extra wort. I'm not trying to change your mind here - you should definitely choose a path and run with it for this first batch - but for a data point for future consideration as you figure out your process more, a cold water sparge works well for some of us.

 

[DC_0602]

@BrewbyBerg - what App is that?

 

[BrewByBerg]

@BrewbyBerg - what App is that?

Beer smith mobile

 

[Gavin C]

As you have Beersmith you can use it to calculate the volume of water and the strike temperature you need for a full volume BIAB. The numbers you have seem reasonably close but every equipment setup is a little different and you can tweak it over time.

For a grain bill of about 11-12lbs as your recipe is I would need about 7.5 gallons of strike water to get down to my final volume with a 60 minute boil. I squeeze the beejeepers out of the bag though. Usually loosing 0.5 gallons to the grain absorption.

 

[BrewByBerg]

As you have Beersmith you can use it to calculate the volume of water and the strike temperature you need for a full volume BIAB. The numbers you have seem reasonably close but every equipment setup is a little different and you can tweak it over time.



For a grain bill of about 11-12lbs as your recipe is I would need about 7.5 gallons of strike water to get down to my final volume with a 60 minute boil. I squeeze the beejeepers out of the bag though. Usually loosing 0.5 gallons to the grain absorption.

I've always heard to never squeeze anything due to extracting tannins. So if it seems that I'm not at my correct pre boil volume, couldn't o just sparge with more water? Or if I'm short water after the end of the boil, couldn't i just add more water into the fermentor to get to my 5.5gal

 

[LLBeanJ]

You won't extract tannins by squeezing.

The answer to both of your questions is: yes

 

[bolus14]

For me I generally use the following for calculating my starting water volume
Weight of grain * .15
Loss to evaporation - I use .5gal for my system
Loss to trub - usually about .5gal
Amount of finished wort - In this case 5.25gal

5.25 + (13.5*.15) + .5 + .5 = 8.275 gallons

One of the biggest efficiency booster I've seen for BIAB for me was double crushing my grains, I went from low 60%'s to low to mid 70%'s. Let the grain bag drain, once my daughter had a soccer game, so I mashed, pulled the bag out, and let it drain for about 1.5 hours while we went to her soccer game, I got 78% efficiency on that batch. I'm not saying let it drain for 1.5 hours as the norm, but with about 15-20 min and some squeezing you should get around the same efficiency as "regular" all grain brewers.

Another option that I use for "bigger" beers is to hold back 2 gallons, mash as I usually do, as I get close to ending the 60 min mash I heat the 2 gal up to 170 degrees, drain the bag for 5-10 min, then dip the bag in a separate vessel with the 2 gal of 170 degree water. I typically only do this when my grain bill is around 15 lbs or more. I use an 11 gal kettle so this also helps keeps from overflowing the kettle since I'm holding back 2 gal in the original mash.

As with most things in this hobby take what other brewers do as a guideline and modify for what works for you, very few things are set in stone.

 

[BrewByBerg]

You won't extract tannins by squeezing.



The answer to both of your questions is: yes

Thank you everyone for the help!

I brewed yesterday and of course there are things I learned and will try and improve next time. My final OG was a lot lower than my expected 1.065. It was 1.052 or so. What will this mean to the final beer? At worst will this just be a sessionable 5% ipa?

Also I did notice some grain trub that ended up in the fermentor. I used a hop spider so no hops got into it, only grain. Is this a huge deal on the beer?

Thanks again

 

[LLBeanJ]

1.052 will make for a fine beer. No worries regarding a little grain trub in the fermenter.

 

[Gavin C]

Trub seems to be no bad thing. Brulosopher has a great site with various experiments. Trub was one thing he looked at. Check it out.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Great job on the first brew. Congrats.

 

[blaxbear]

I would disregard Beerloverhere's statement. Grossly inaccurate in fact and theory.

There's really no need to be rude here...

I'm interested in the evidence that confirms what others have said regarding squeezing the grain bag. Is there any writing on grain squeezing and tannin production? Repeating a claim without evidence doesn't make it true.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I'm interested in the evidence that confirms what others have said regarding squeezing the grain bag. Is there any writing on grain squeezing and tannin production? Repeating a claim without evidence doesn't make it true.

I personally can't point to any sources, but I'm sure there are sources out there somewhere that will point to mismanaged pH as the source of tannins.

Let's turn your question around:

Do you have any published evidence that proves tannins must be released due to squeezing? Not talking about steeping a pound or two in a pot of water so that the pH is not adequately buffered, but rather with a full-on mash and a complete grain bill, since that's the context we're talking about here.

As far as empirical evidence goes, however, I've got plenty. I've been brewing BIAB for about 3 years now, nearly 70 batches. Every single one of them has been squeezed; some just lightly, others like it owes me money, and the rest somewhere in between. Never had I had a batch that suffered from astringency. My testimony is not unique. There are dozens, if not hundreds of BIAB brewers on this forum who will attest to the same experience. The fact is: tannin extraction is a function of pH. Keep your pH <~6.0 and tannins will not come out. If you pH exceeds ~6.0, then you'll likely have an astringency issue whether you squeeze or not, though keeping the grain temp below 170°F may help keep the problem at bay. I prefer to manage my pH, since that's kind of a prerequisite for making good beer anyway, and not worry about tannins.

 

[ronjonacron]

This may not work for everyone, but I do a dunk Sparge technique which ends up being a 2 vessel system.

Heat up strike water in kettle, mash in cooler tun with bag. Hold back 2 gallons or so for the kettle. heat the two gallons up to 170 or so, pull the bag from cooler and sit in the kettle for 10 mins or so, stirring oeriodically. Then I pull the bag and transfer the contents of the cooler into the kettle.

 

[blaxbear]

I never claimed to have "published evidence", and I'm more than happy with your anecdotal evidence because that's really what we have to go on around here. I don't have the same experience with the technique that you do which is why I brought it up in the first place.

More to the point, Gavin C didn't have to just shrug off someone's comments without providing at least some reason.