First attempt at a Barleywine. Let me know what you think. Be honest, please!!

[reddskinnfan]

25 lbs Pale Malt, Optic (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
4 lbs Carared (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM)
4 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM)
2 lbs Rye Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM)
2 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)
0.68 oz HopShot [61.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
3.00 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop
2.00 oz Comet [11.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml]
2.50 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.25 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.25 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Whatcha think??

 

[day_trippr]

"Yard Sale"

Can that yeast handle something that's going to start pretty near 1.200 OG?

Cheers!

 

[BigPerm]

Is this 5 or 10 gallons?

 

[reddskinnfan]

10 gallons.

 

[masskrug]

My only question: Have you hired a crew to lift and clean that mush tun when you are done? It will weight nearly 40 pounds!

 

[reddskinnfan]

My only question: Have you hired a crew to lift and clean that mush tun when you are done? It will weight nearly 40 pounds!

40# is easy peasy!

 

[GuldTuborg]

4lbs carared? That's quite a bit, especially in a beer this big.

 

[reddskinnfan]

Based on responses thus far, here is where I am heading now:

28 lbs Pale Malt, Optic (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
3 lbs Rye Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM)
8 oz CaraPils (Briess) (1.5 SRM)
8 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM)
2 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)
0.51 oz HopShot [61.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
3.00 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop
2.00 oz Comet [11.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml]
3.0 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

This gets me the color I was looking for, without the reliance on the Caramel malts I was originally going to use.

Will do a 120 min mash @ 148 F. 90 min boil with 15ml of HopShot at beginning of boil. The rest of the hops will be in the whirlpool and dry hop. I will be using 2 x GigaYeast NorCal #1, built up to two 3L starters and decanted (1.2+ billion yeast cells).

 

[GuldTuborg]

Don't forget a beer this big is going to get plenty of color from a rolling 90+ min boil. Software doesn't account for that. Of course, if what you want is a brownish color, add the carafa. A hard boil will give you more amber/red tones. It all depends on what you're shooting for.

 

[BigPerm]

You don't need a 2 hour mash. 90 @ 149-150 is plenty.

You went from having 4lbs of caramel malt to zero. A small percentage of caramel is nice for balance in a big beer. I'd go 5-8% of s moderate color (69/80L). You can replace your carapils with this; carapils won't give you anything that the caramel and rye won't. As the last post suggest, I'd reduce the Carafa to at least half of what you have. I just don't see the point of adding color for the sake of color, but that's me I guess.

 

[reddskinnfan]

So drop the CaraPils and Carafa and add the same amount of CaraRed back?

 

[reddskinnfan]

You don't need a 2 hour mash. 90 @ 149-150 is plenty.

You went from having 4lbs of caramel malt to zero. A small percentage of caramel is nice for balance in a big beer. I'd go 5-8% of s moderate color (69/80L). You can replace your carapils with this; carapils won't give you anything that the caramel and rye won't. As the last post suggest, I'd reduce the Carafa to at least half of what you have. I just don't see the point of adding color for the sake of color, but that's me I guess.

Okay, BigPerm, here is what I came up with after your suggestions:

26 lbs Pale Malt, Optic (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
3 lbs Rye Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM)
1 lbs 12 oz CaraRed (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM)
4 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM)
2 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)
0.51 oz HopShot [61.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
3.00 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop
2.00 oz Comet [11.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml]
3.0 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

This looking better to you?

 

[ong]

What I've done with big barleywines in the past is just brew an ordinary bitter (around 1.040) and use the whole cake from that as the starter. That way you get an extra beer out of it, at least!

 

[BPal75]

I don't think you get added color by boiling longer. You get more boil off, so the concentration of wort makes it look darker, but if you start with 6 gallons and boil down to 5 over 60 mins you should be at the same color as starting with 6.5 gallons and boiling to 5 over 90. You will get more maillard reactions in a 90 min boil, which will give you more malty flavors.

 

[reddskinnfan]

I don't think you get added color by boiling longer. You get more boil off, so the concentration of wort makes it look darker, but if you start with 6 gallons and boil down to 5 over 60 mins you should be at the same color as starting with 6.5 gallons and boiling to 5 over 90. You will get more maillard reactions in a 90 min boil, which will give you more malty flavors.

Hence the reason I kept 4 oz of Carafa Special III for the color I am looking for.

 

[BigPerm]

Looks good to me!

 

[GuldTuborg]

So drop the CaraPils and Carafa and add the same amount of CaraRed back?

Maybe, maybe not. It all really depends what you're looking for. If you want a recipe that's an amalgam of the preferences of guys around here, make changes will nilly. Most of what you hear will be either advice helping you avoid big errors (i.e., tastes basically no one will like) or personal preferences.

A better way to approach this would be to describe in detail what you want your beer to look like, taste like, smell like, etc. Reference commercial examples if need be. From there, we can use a common set of descriptions and experiences to narrow down a good starting recipe for you. You mentioned adding carafa for color, but never mentioned what color you want, for example. Approach from the opposite direction.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I don't think you get added color by boiling longer.

You absolutely do. Sugars caramelize in greater quantity and to a greater degree the longer it boils (the maillard reaction brewers love to discuss). The higher the gravity, the more this tends to happen. Longer and hotter boils develop color and flavor beyond simply concentrating what's already in the pot.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't think you get added color by boiling longer. You get more boil off, so the concentration of wort makes it look darker, but if you start with 6 gallons and boil down to 5 over 60 mins you should be at the same color as starting with 6.5 gallons and boiling to 5 over 90. You will get more maillard reactions in a 90 min boil, which will give you more malty flavors.

You've apparently never done a long boil...

I did a traditional turbid mashed Lambic, with a 5 hour boil. In a low gravity grain bill that was all pils malt and wheat (ie pale as pale could be) it ended up being surprisingly dark (gold into amber).

+1 on making a starter beer. I do it for all my big, big beers.

And then do yourself a favor, and withhold any sugar additions until after fermentation has pretty much stopped.

And make sure you're going with pure O2 to oxygenate, if you aren't already. Give it a good 90-120 seconds before you pitch, and give it another 60 seconds maybe 8-12 hours after you've pitched. You want to make sure this attenuates enough.

 

[fantomlord]

Okay, BigPerm, here is what I came up with after your suggestions:

26 lbs Pale Malt, Optic (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
3 lbs Rye Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM)
1 lbs 12 oz CaraRed (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM)
4 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM)
2 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)
0.51 oz HopShot [61.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
3.00 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop
2.00 oz Comet [11.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml]
3.0 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Simcoe [13.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
1.5 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

This looking better to you?

my personal opinion is that any grain other than barley has no place in a barley wine. Oh, and I might cut the carared back to 1 lb only...you'll get plenty of color and residual malty sweetness with very little crystal malts. And you'll also get color from a nice lengthy boil, as mentioned above.

oh, and I would also agree with the suggestion to make a session ale first to get your yeast for this brew.

 

[BPal75]

.

 

[BPal75]

You absolutely do. Sugars caramelize in greater quantity and to a greater degree the longer it boils (the maillard reaction brewers love to discuss). The higher the gravity, the more this tends to happen. Longer and hotter boils develop color and flavor beyond simply concentrating what's already in the pot.

My point was in the context of his post but I was u clear in that regard. I simply meant that the amount of kettle caramelization that will occur in a large volume of wort over 90 mins (posters timeframe) vs a typical 60 mins is pretty inconsequential and not likely to effect color in any meaningful way to the human eye. You are more likely to get a detectable increase in "malty" flavors. I have not done a 5 hour boil which sounds like does produce color but that's not what we were talking about here.

To get any meaningful kettle caramelized flavors and corresponding wort darkening in a more typical boil time you'd have to boil a small amount of first runnings that is high in sugar concentration and low in volume, like a Scottish ale.

 

[robotinc]

Whenever I make a beer this big, I run extra water through the mash to make a small beer. It's almost free, just yeast and hops, and is a great way to experiment, as it's not the main focus of he brew day.

I got barrel last summer and gave aged 2 clean beers in it. I make 2 ten gallon beers to fill it, giving me two opportunities to make small beers. The first was a huge imperial stout, so the small beers where an export stout, and a dark sour. The next beer was a quad barlywine hybrid, so for small beers I made a pale ale, and a mild.

You can also add a couple pounds of character malt for the small beer to push it away from its older brother.


Finally, when I make barley wines I only use a very small amount of crystal malt, preferring the caramel flavors that result from a 2+ hour boil.

 

[reddskinnfan]

I am sticking with the recipe in my last post. I like Rye and think a little in the Barleywine would be good.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[trimixdiver1]

Partigyle that mash.

 

[reddskinnfan]

Partigyle that mash.

New concept to me....

If I did a Partigyle, would I just collect the first runnings for the Barleywine, then do multiple additional sparges until I was only getting 1.010 runoff for the second beer?

Would that make a 5 gallon high gravity Barleywine and a 10 gallon low gravity (about 1.045) lighter colored base (which I could add DME too, and some steeped specialty grains, maybe)?

That would be interesting, as I don't really want 10 gallons of Barleywine, but would be okay with a 5 gallon batch and a 10 gallon batch of a lighter pale ale (since the rye contribution would cool for that beer).

Thanks for any additional info you can provide.

 

[reddskinnfan]

New concept to me....

If I did a Partigyle, would I just collect the first runnings for the Barleywine, then do multiple additional sparges until I was only getting 1.010 runoff for the second beer?

Would that make a 5 gallon high gravity Barleywine and a 10 gallon low gravity (about 1.045) lighter colored base (which I could add DME too, and some steeped specialty grains, maybe)?

That would be interesting, as I don't really want 10 gallons of Barleywine, but would be okay with a 5 gallon batch and a 10 gallon batch of a lighter pale ale (since the rye contribution would cool for that beer).

Thanks for any additional info you can provide.

Okay, after using some Google Fu, I think I found some info that may help (Braukaiser's Partigyle Simulator: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator).

It looks like with the amount of grain I have, estimating my efficiency at 75% (which is about 5% lower than my normal efficiency), that if I add 10.1 gallons of water to my mash, with the 32 lbs of grain, that I would get an expected 6 gallons of First Runnings, at 1.090 pre-boil (without the added sugar). After a 60 min boil, losing about a gallon, I would end up with a OG of about 1.100.

If I add two equal volume sparges (@ 5.5 gallons/each), I can get 11 gallons, for the second beer, of about 1.035 pre-boil. After boil, that would be more like 1.040 (or 1.055, if I add 4 lbs of DME).

So, in theory, I could make 5 gallons of a 1.100 American Barleywine, and 10 gallons of an 1.055 American IPA. I could even do the same hops for each (of course, lower quantity for the IPA to keep it in style), to showcase them in different gravity brews.

I like this idea!

 

[B8A_AMYLASE]

Hope you have a blow off tube ready that low mash is going to put a lot of fermentables in the wort. Let me know how that yeast acts!

 

[trimixdiver1]

Okay, after using some Google Fu, I think I found some info that may help (Braukaiser's Partigyle Simulator: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator).

It looks like with the amount of grain I have, estimating my efficiency at 75% (which is about 5% lower than my normal efficiency), that if I add 10.1 gallons of water to my mash, with the 32 lbs of grain, that I would get an expected 6 gallons of First Runnings, at 1.090 pre-boil (without the added sugar). After a 60 min boil, losing about a gallon, I would end up with a OG of about 1.100.

If I add two equal volume sparges (@ 5.5 gallons/each), I can get 11 gallons, for the second beer, of about 1.035 pre-boil. After boil, that would be more like 1.040 (or 1.055, if I add 4 lbs of DME).

So, in theory, I could make 5 gallons of a 1.100 American Barleywine, and 10 gallons of an 1.055 American IPA. I could even do the same hops for each (of course, lower quantity for the IPA to keep it in style), to showcase them in different gravity brews.

I like this idea!

It will be a long day, but it's worth it. You can also can the second runnings for starters.

Oxygenate the wort, swirl the yeast back for the first couple days. Also Beano may help if your yeast peters out

 

[reddskinnfan]

It will be a long day, but it's worth it. You can also can the second runnings for starters.

Oxygenate the wort, swirl the yeast back for the first couple days. Also Beano may help if your yeast peters out

I always oxygenate, and will build appropriate starters for each beer.