First AG is done! Went well but I have a few questions.

[michur]

First things first. THANKS to all of you on HBT. Your wisdom helped make today a great day for my first AG.

The kit was NB Caribou Slobber. OG 1.052

The grain bill:
9 lbs 2-row pale
.75 lbs Briess Caramel 60L
.5 lbs Briess Carmel 80L
.25 lbs Fawcett Pale Chocolate
.125 lbs Simpsons Black Malt

Used 4 gallons of strike water for the mash in. 153 degrees for 60 min. Sparge water 170 degrees.

Very happy with everything. Hit all my temps spot on. A few things I didn't keep track of:
1) how much sparge water was used (I think 4 gallons),
2) how long it took me to sparge (probably about 20 min), and
3) SG pre-boil.

When I took the OG reading post-boil it was 1.062. What happend? Efficiency too high?

1. How can I determine the efficiency since I didn't take a pre-boil reading?
2. Any advice on what I should have done differently?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[earwig]

What final volume did you end up with, and what was it supposed to be?

 

[Frodo]

Your efficiency was higher than the recipe was designed for, OR you made less volume of wort than the recipe was designed for.

My understanding is that Brewhouse Efficiency (according to BeerSmith software program anyway) is what goes into the fermenter. So amount of sugar you did get divided by the total amount possible from the grain. So you can calculate that with the numbers you do have (OG and volume in the fermenter).

 

[Sarrsipius]

If your volumes were correct it sounds like your brew day was just more efficient than the recipe assumed. Most kit's assume about 65-67% eff. many home brewers get much better efficeincy during the mash. I use beer smith and it's easy to determine efficiency. Just enter your recipe and then after the brew day, adjust the efficiency setting until your OG = the estimated OG...whala! you know your efficiency. After a few AG brews you will know what to expect from your setup and can adjust recipes as appropriate to achieve the desired OG.

 

[michur]

I had 6 1/2 gallons pre boil and 5 gallons post boil.

 

[michur]

Beersmith is my next purchase now that I have all my AG stuff.

 

[flabyboy]

I am planning on doing this recipe for my first AG too. The one thing I noticed you did different than what Beersmith recommended for me was the strike and sparge volumes. I plan on using 3.3 gallons for strike and 5.6 gallons for sparge.

One thing I am wondering. Can't we just dilute with clean water to reach the recommended OG? Bring it up to 5.5 gallons or something. Any harm in doing this?

 

[Frodo]

No harm in doing that, it's what you're supposed to do if you have too high an OG. Bottled water, or boiled and cooled water is preferable (required seems too strong a word... but I guess it's "required" so you don't contaminate the wort - though I've just added tap water...)

EDIT: on the flipside, if you have too low an OG, you can add DME boiled in the minimal amt of water to bring up the OG.

 

[Frodo]

Beersmith is my next purchase now that I have all my AG stuff.

You can download and use it for free for a certain time period, something like 20 days as I recall. You can also try Promash for free and see which one you prefer.

 

[Golddiggie]

I am planning on doing this recipe for my first AG too. The one thing I noticed you did different than what Beersmith recommended for me was the strike and sparge volumes. I plan on using 3.3 gallons for strike and 5.6 gallons for sparge.

One thing I am wondering. Can't we just dilute with clean water to reach the recommended OG? Bring it up to 5.5 gallons or something. Any harm in doing this?

From what I've been able to gather from other postings (from people who have done AG batches more than I probably ever will) you don't want to just add plain/tap water to the mash runnings and boil. You want to run more water through the grain until you reach your pre-boil water volume. Then boil... For one thing, you'll extract more from the grain that way. You want to extract as much as you can from the grain, to get more fermentable sugars into the wort. So unless you're planning on mashing with enough water to get your pre-boil volume, you'll want to mash, then sparge the grain.

I actually purchased the Beer Smith license (before the 21 day trial ran out) since it was pretty damn cheap (even for someone out of work) and it's extremely helpful. Being able to have it on my desktop, plus my laptop, means that no matter where I go (provided my laptop is with me), I can work on a recipe... I look forward to the time when the BlackBerry app is ready that does pretty much the same thing...

 

[lumpher]

From what I've been able to gather from other postings (from people who have done AG batches more than I probably ever will) you don't want to just add plain/tap water to the mash runnings and boil. You want to run more water through the grain until you reach your pre-boil water volume. Then boil... For one thing, you'll extract more from the grain that way. You want to extract as much as you can from the grain, to get more fermentable sugars into the wort. So unless you're planning on mashing with enough water to get your pre-boil volume, you'll want to mash, then sparge the grain.

this is how i do it. helps with efficiency. adding more straight water just, well... waters it down

 

[Golddiggie]

this is how i do it. helps with efficiency. adding more straight water just, well... waters it down

Watering down the brew at that stage is just plain WRONG!! I think it might be going against all that is holy (or is that hoppy?), against laws of man, nature, and the gods...

Trying to cut corners by not sparging (or getting 100% pre-boil water out of a single mashing) is also just wrong. If you want to make a quick brew, go either with a partial mash, or extract brew with specialty grains. I've already assumed that any AG brewings will take up pretty much the entire day (between setup, brewing, and then cleanup time)... Time well spent, especially if you have a brew buddy come over to help out...

 

[Frodo]

Wait a sec... the whole point IS TO WATER IT DOWN if your efficiency is higher than you'd anticipated and your preboil gravity/postboil gravity/OG is higher than you wanted.

Besides that, if you start running water through grain and get below 1.008 on the output, you're going to extract tannins from the husks (so the books say).

 

[michur]

I've already assumed that any AG brewings will take up pretty much the entire day (between setup, brewing, and then cleanup time)... Time well spent, especially if you have a brew buddy come over to help out...

For my first AG it actually went pretty quick. 4 hrs from start to finish with a little help from a brew buddy. It also helps when SWMBO and kids are gone for the day. Got my next one planned for this weekend. Hopefully this one will be sans kids also.

 

[Golddiggie]

Wait a sec... the whole point IS TO WATER IT DOWN if your efficiency is higher than you'd anticipated and your preboil gravity/postboil gravity/OG is higher than you wanted.

Besides that, if you start running water through grain and get below 1.008 on the output, you're going to extract tannins from the husks (so the books say).

Assuming your volume is correct pre-boil and post-boil I don't think anyone (here) would really care if the OG is higher than the efficiency level you assumed you would have, would have given you. If you assumed 70% efficiency, but then the post-boil OG indicated 80%, no one (here, or in their right mind in my opinion) would water it down. Especially if you were at your batch target volume. My first PM brewing, I boiled off too much, so I had to add almost a gallon to get to 5 gallons in fermenter. I still hit 74% efficiency (had assumed I would get 70%)... I didn't add more water to get to 70%... I probably could have just left it as it was and gotten a higher efficiency level (and less brew to bottle)...

If you design your brew properly, I don't think you'll run into issues with going having too much water going through your grain. At least, not using good software.

Michur, I'm doing my first AG brew this weekend (Sunday).... I'm projecting needing about 5-6 hours to get it all done (including mash, sparge, boil times and such)... Probably another hour in cleanup/setup time too. That's with a 90 minute boil, 90 minute mash, 30 minute sparge, etc... I'll plan to rack the brew in primary during the mash time, or do that on Saturday, so that the primary is clean and ready for the new brew.

BTW, I'll be testing Beer Smith's water accuracy this weekend... It's telling me that I can mash with 17 quarts, and then sparge with 13 quarts and have my pre-boil volume at 6 gallons... If I need to run another gallon of sparge water through the grain to get my volume, I don't see it as being the end of the world, or being a seriously bad thing... I'm planning on having an 8 quart pot with 6 quarts of water at sparge temp in the wings... Just in case I need it... Better to be prepared and not need it, then not be prepared and have to scramble for it...

 

[michur]

No problem, I'd rather go over the projected OG than be too low. I was just more curious if there is a big difference between pre-boil SG and post-boil. I guess it makes sense that it depends on the pre-boil volume and how much boil off there is. So I assume there is really no general rule or guidelines. As we often say at the office when faced with a yes/no question, "It depends."

Too much of a tight a** to drop coin on Brewsmith right now. I've spent too much on my AG set up and am feeling...what is that....guilt? SWMBO isn't complaing...yet. Don't want to press my luck. The free trial is looking like the way to go.

 

[Frodo]

One thing I am wondering. Can't we just dilute with clean water to reach the recommended OG? Bring it up to 5.5 gallons or something. Any harm in doing this?

The answer to that question is NO, no harm in doing that. That's the question I originally answered. If you're trying to achieve a certain goal, such as brewing a particular style with a certain level of IBUs and a certain BU:GU ratio, and have planned for that particular OG with a particular sized starter, then the OG is actually IMPORTANT.

Otherwise, if you're really shooting for a higher OG beer, then by all means just add a couple lbs of grain... it's like $3-4 for a couple lbs of grain. If you're shooting for an OG and have planned your hops and yeast amounts and all else for that OG, but then end up with a higher OG, I say DILUTE.

And (Golddiggie) good luck with that first all grain, especially the 5-6 hrs with a 90 min mash and 90 min boil.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've not taken any pre-boil gravity readings yet... I might with the next brewing (this weekend) if I can remember to do it that is... The real imporant number (to me at least) is the post-boil OG reading... As long as that's within the range of what you expect, you're good to go...

Beer Smith is like $21... You're going to spend it eventually, why put it off?? If the SWMBO starts complaining, just feed her a couple pints of what you've brewed (that's in a drinking condition/state) and she'll quiet down pretty quick...

Going AG, you'll save what the software costs in just the first brewing. Considering how the extract kits at the LHBS run ~$40 (on up), making the same brew in AG, will run you far, far less (in the area of $10-$15, less if you wash yeast)... I'm about to start washing my yeasts so that I can get several brewings out of one purchase. I'm planning to split the original yeast into 2-4 parts, then get at least 5 brewings per part, so around 20 more brewings before the yeast is gone... I have three yeasts that I'm planning to wash, two in primary, the third will be this weekend... With washing yeast, you can make a 'normal' gravity brew for about $10 when you go AG, if you get the ingredients from the right vendors... I actually have a SMaSH recipe (strong bitter/pale ale) that's going to cost me all of $13 for a 5 gallon batch... Same brew would cost about $60 (or more) if you purchased it...

Ultimately, it comes down to finding a source for your grain, hops, etc. that is going to charge you a reasonable rate, and be self sufficient for as much as you can (at least yeast, and perhaps hops if you can)...

I'm glad I found Farmhouse Brewing Supply (from the vendor list here) since their hop prices are about 1/3 (or better) of what the LHBS sells them for. Grain is easily 1/2 the cost of the LHBS too. No difference in price if it's milled or not... :rockin:
[/digression]

 

[Golddiggie]

And (Golddiggie) good luck with that first all grain, especially the 5-6 hrs with a 90 min mash and 90 min boil.

Thanks Mr. Baggins... I was going to make a much bigger brew, but I need it ready for drinking on Feb. 12th, so I had to scale it back a bit... Still planning on making a big brew soon though. Once I've tested out the new mash tun of course...

I will say, home brews can have some serious kick to them... Been drinking my honey kissed amber ale tonight.. Two pints and I'm very happy... I can still type, but I'm having to correct more than I would normally. I only think I can have one more before it's Z time...

 

[michur]

Golddiggie - Actually I washed some yeast from a kit I did with my father-in-law and am using that for my next batch this Sat. A nice simple bock. He had tons of cigar boxes so I made a stir plate. Got the starter going already.

When does a hoby become an obsession?

 

[Golddiggie]

When does a hoby become an obsession?

I think it's when the new purchases start running into five figures...

I almost have what I need to make a stir-plate too... Just need to get a housing (no cigar boxes here) and maybe a speed controller (can't spell it right now)... I could just use the housing, since I have some DC/computer fans (92mm and 120mm) and speed control units that I can use (not sure what speed I would need to have the fan spinning at)... I might need to get a magnet since the one I pulled from the laptop hard drive might not be enough (will try it before buying anything new)...

Since I've had good results using the swirl as you pass method, I'm not in a rush to make a stir-plate...

I will be washing yeast though. Since I won't be using that yeast (from the batch in primary now) for a while, I have time to do it up right.

How many parts did you divide the yeast cake into? Since it's really just me brewing here, I don't think I need to go with the 6-12 part mode... I think anything over two will cover me for some time to come. Getting the yeast portion of the expense down to a few cents per batch will be a great thing...

 

[michur]

Following Bernie Brewer's sticky i was able to split it into 3 parts. Figure if I don't use them timely no big deal. They will last a while. I saw someone here say they exchange them at their local homebrew club meetings. I'll have to mention that at our next meeting. That would be a great way to build up a library of yeasties!

 

[Golddiggie]

I plan to keep my yeasties for myself... My precious yeasties... Mine, allll mine... heh I'll have to see if I can locate a couple more mason jars this time year... Or empty some out to make room for yeasties...

Just wondering how much I'll capture from each brewing after the first... It could really build up fast... Might be a good reason to pick up another freezer/fridge... If only I had more room in my apartment... Already thinking about putting a fermentation chamber into the kitchen closet. Keezer into the living room, I suppose I could put a small chest freezer in the kichen, and use that for yeast storage, and other fridge temp items...

Is it just me, or do others find that home brews go down so much better than what you buy at the store? Even at warmer temperatures, this stuff is damned good... Warmer as in wine cellar temps (50-55F)... Doesn't cloud up as much at those temps too...

 

[flabyboy]

I was actually talking about topping off with water after the boil in the fermenter. Much like with extract batches. I would think if you boiled off a little to much and your OG was high it would change the character in your beer in a way you may not necessarily want or like. By adding a half gallon of water to your fermenter your just compensating for over boiling or having to small a preboil volume. I agree its not ideal, but if I am making a session type like beer (OP recipe) than I think I would rather it wasn't 6-7% ABV

From what I've been able to gather from other postings (from people who have done AG batches more than I probably ever will) you don't want to just add plain/tap water to the mash runnings and boil. You want to run more water through the grain until you reach your pre-boil water volume. Then boil... For one thing, you'll extract more from the grain that way. You want to extract as much as you can from the grain, to get more fermentable sugars into the wort. So unless you're planning on mashing with enough water to get your pre-boil volume, you'll want to mash, then sparge the grain.

I actually purchased the Beer Smith license (before the 21 day trial ran out) since it was pretty damn cheap (even for someone out of work) and it's extremely helpful. Being able to have it on my desktop, plus my laptop, means that no matter where I go (provided my laptop is with me), I can work on a recipe... I look forward to the time when the BlackBerry app is ready that does pretty much the same thing...

 

[Golddiggie]

I was actually talking about topping off with water after the boil in the fermenter. Much like with extract batches. I would think if you boiled off a little to much and your OG was high it would change the character in your beer in a way you may not necessarily want or like. By adding a half gallon of water to your fermenter your just compensating for over boiling or having to small a preboil volume. I agree its not ideal, but if I am making a session type like beer (OP recipe) than I think I would rather it wasn't 6-7% ABV

I wouldn't add more than 1 gallon (with a 5 gallon batch size) of plain water when going AG... I would also suggest topping off in the pot, and letting it boil/heat for 5-10 minutes before dumping into the fermenter (to ensure it mixes fully)...

I've marked my mixer (a mixing paddle) in 1/2 gallon increments (from 4 gallons on, in 1 gallon increments below that) so that I can tell (quickly) how much I have left in the pot. If the boil is reducing too fast, I'll add some more sparge water (provided it's not to the level where it will not be good).

Nothing wrong with making a brew in the 6-7% ABV range... My first brew was like that. My second was closer to 4.5%, and the two since then should be at least 7%... The one I'm planning on making this weekend will be in the 6-7% range (unless I tweak it again to get more)...

I was at an event in July where we went to a brew pub after (free all you could eat Maine lobster bake and open bar)... I liked their pub pale ale... Their line is "two is not enough, three is too many" when talking pints... Looking at their site, for that brew, it appears to be about 4.5% ABV... I would have pegged it as higher than that... Still, at two pints I was happy...

I would say that it's better to make a brew, keep good notes, and review once it's completed. You can always brew it a little different the next time until you get it exactly where you want it. That's part of the fun of homebrewing...

 

[flabyboy]

Ya. I just figured a American Brown may not taste the best when really boozy. Don't get me wrong. I like a strong beer, but when I sit around with friends and want to have several. Give me something a little on the lighter side. thanks for the tips though. Much appreciated

 

[Golddiggie]

Using Beer Smith you can enter your pre-boil gravity reading, plug in your boil time, and it will give you the post boil OG estimate... You can use that to adjust your boil time to make sure you get into your OG target range.

I would also use Beer Smith to figure out the recipe so that you have a better chance of getting what you're looking for.

Do keep in mind, that it's going to take a few sessions/brews to dial in your gear to get a steady efficiency number that you can then tell Beer Smith so that you can adjust the grain amount accordingly.