Find my Homebrew Twang

[mbbransc]

OK, I'm 6 batches into my most recent adventure in homebrewing. Without much adieu, all my beers contain all off-flavor aftertaste I've termed, 'homebrew twang'. Let me lay out my steps and see if you can see a potential culprit, or at least an area I can tighten up my steps to alleviate this problem.

To date, all batches are ales (2 pales, DIPA, blonde, wit, and stout). I have used various yeast from Wyeast, WL and dry (S-04 and US-05). The first two batches I had some issues with the wort chiller, but the last 4 have all gone smooth. Batches have been either all extract (liquid and dry) or partial mash. Star-San is my sanitizer of choice. Fermentation is in buckets. 4 batches have stayed in primary the entire time and 2 were racked off to secondaries. But throughout all 6 batches, this off-flavor persists.

I'm using tap water (NC municipal water with good report and tastes). All wort is boiled in turkey boilers (either a 6.5G or 7.5G kettle). Mashing/Steeping is done in a cooler to maintain constant temps. All wort is cooled with chiller. I've done hop stands and cool immediately. Temps are always under 80F before pitching yeast and one was down to 65F. Only conditioner I use is whirlfloc at 15min in the boil but only used it on the first (2) batches, not the last (4).

Fermentation takes place in a freezer with STC-1000 temp control. All fermentations have been between 62F and 68F. I do have a question here though... I have a growler of Star-San in the freezer for the blow off tubes. That's where I've been placing my temperature probe so not to read ambiant temps but liquid temps. From recent readings, should I be accounting for yeast temps and adjusting my thermostat down another 4-8 degrees? I have NOT been doing this to date.

All batches that stayed in primary were bottled after (3) weeks. The batches that were racked off to secondaries spent (2) weeks in each spot before being bottled.

All batches have been cold crashed to 34F before bottling. Temps were allowed to rise back up before bottling.

At bottling, I have a bucket of Star-San I dunk all my bottles into. I remove from bucket, drain contents, and then fill with beer. Cap immediately with caps soaking in Star-San. All bottles are allowed to condition in ambient basement temps ranging from 66F-74F.

My intuition tells me there is something going on either with the yeast during fermentation, at bottling, or both. But I can't think of what.

 

[unionrdr]

Usually,extract twang comes from putting all the LME in at the begining of the boil. Mailard reactions cause darkening & the twang flavor usually. Also,get your pitch temp down to 64-68F for a better health to your yeast pitch. It's initial fermentation where by products of fermentation are produced in high enough quantities to smell &/or taste. Don't rack the beer anywhere till a stable FG is reached. I leave it in primary at that point to let the yeast clean up any by products of fermentation which are naturally produced anyway. The key is not to let temps,yeast health,etc produce them in sufficient PPM to smell or taste them.

 

[mbbransc]

Thx for the response.

During my boils, I add all the DME at the beginning and 1/2 the LME. I add the rest of the LME in the last 5 minutes of the boil. (although I've heard ALL LME has some homebrew twang to it)

The (2) times I racked to secondary, both the batches were at FG.

I'd heard pitch temps were OK to be a little warm (since yeast like it warm) if it was going into a controlled temp environment like a fermentation chamber.

 

[unionrdr]

Ale yeasts are cleaner at mid-60's ferment temps. Especially initial fermentation where most of the fermenting occurs. Ale yeasts don't like to be too warm during initial fermentation. It's better to pitch on the cool side of the yeast's sweet spot & let it warm after initial fermentation. I use plain DME in the boil for AE beers & LME in @ flame out. Since pasteurization happens @ 160F,it's good to do that for little or no twang & lighter color.

 

[Psycotte]

Could the twang just be that the beer is "Green" and needs some aging?

 

[unionrdr]

I wondered about how noobs can mistake a flavor for something it might not be. I like to let the beer sit another 3-7 days after FG is reached to clean up & settle out clear or slightly misty before bottling. I let them sit at 70F or so for 3-4 weeks on average before fridging for a week. Time can be a healer,but only to a point. The yeast can only clean up so much...

 

[mbbransc]

Could the twang just be that the beer is "Green" and needs some aging?

I thought this on the first few batches. But the first two batches have been bottled for (6) weeks now and the second two batches for (3) weeks.

If anything, I think the 'twang' in the first two batches has gotten STRONGER over the past (3) weeks.

 

[unionrdr]

Off flavors can get stronger after the beer carbs. so it's def fermentation related.

 

[duboman]

Twang is a pretty tough thing to diagnose. Usually it is associated with adding all extract at the beginning of the boil and it carmelizes or scorches. Perhaps you are tasting something else?

Look at this and read through descriptors to see if something else pops out to you: http://www.beerjudgeschool.com/uploads/Beer_Characteristics_Flash_Cards.pdf

 

[dobe12]

Since you said its in all of your batches, maybe it's something in your water. I'd brew a batch or two with bottled water and see if that helps. If not, at least you can cross that off the list.

 

[solbes]

1) use RO water and add some Ca/Mg minerals back if mashing grains. You could be tasting chlorine, chloramine, or chorophenols in your beer
2) chill your wort to bottom of yeast's temp range before pitching yeast

80F is way too hot for a pitch temp. Yes yeast like it warm. They also have an orgy at those temps and produce all kinds of off flavors. My only batch with twang was my first, when I pitched at around 80F. I made a total of 8 batches that were extract or partial mash, and the first was the only one that had it. From batch #2 on, I always cool to the low side and then pitch.

 

[unionrdr]

Me too. I chill the wort to 75F or so,strain into fermenter,then top off to recipe volume with very cold water from the fridge. I get it down to 64-65F with ease. Def a good initial pitch temp.

 

[ericbw]

How are you drinking the beers? Pouring it in a glass but leaving the yeast? Not drinking the yeast, right? How long do you chill before drinking. Three days is good, a week is better. You're not just chilling it, it's also conditioning some.

I think the alleged home brew twang is the taste of yeast that many people aren't used to. In commercial bottle conditioned beers, it's probably compacted and you don't taste it.

 

[unionrdr]

No,the twang is def from mailard reactions. It's a cooked extract sort of flavor.

 

[flars]

I would suspect your tap water. I can't imagine there is a municipal supply anywhere that is not treated.

Try bottled water for your next brew. Previously posted, have your wort cooled to within 5° of fermentation temperature. Tape and insulate your probe to the side of the fermentation bucket for actual wort temperatures during fermentation. Ferment in the low to mid 60° to see if the taste persists.

Use late addition technique for the LME to reduce the effects of the Mailliard reaction.

 

[unionrdr]

That's within 10 degrees of eachother,typically. But so try spring water,late extract addition,& mid 60's pitch temp & see if that works better.

 

[dstranger99]

I'm going with Unionrdr on this one, It's definately the extract, add that stuff at the end of the boil, off the burner for the last 15 minutes while stirring is my method for extracts, the next key step is chilling to pitching temps, And if your still tasting a "twang" after that method, then stay away from the tap water and use RO or Spring water....

 

[mbbransc]

Here is a copy of my municipality water report: http://www.cityofws.org/portals/0/p...ality-reports/CCUC-WaterQualityReport2012.pdf

 

[chickypad]

Are you doing anything about the chlorine? I use campden because I also have chloramine in my water. My understanding is you can just boil the water in advance to drive off chlorine as long as you don't have any chloramines. Campden would work also though.

As to your temp question, you should try to measure the temp of the fermenting beer as it will be warmer than ambient or other liquid in the chamber. For buckets I tape the probe to the outside below the beer line and insulate with foam or bubble wrap. I compared that technique to a thermowell before in a better bottle and it seemed to be within a degree or so.

 

[mbbransc]

Regarding campden tablets... I thought all the chlorine is driven off during the wort boil making it a non-issue. Is that not accurate?

Should I attempt to account for the 'degree difference' between taping the temp probe to the outside of the bucket when compared to thermowell?

In general, is it a good idea to start low and increase daily? I've heard yeast don't like much change but it sounds like it's better for low temps in the beginning for flavor and high temps in the end for attenuation.

 

[chickypad]

Maybe someone else with more knowledge can comment, but my understanding is that the chlorine interacts with compounds in the wort so you need to drive off the chlorine first, otherwise once those compounds are formed it's too late. At any rate, I see people either boiling their wort first or letting the water sit out for 24 hrs to eliminate the chlorine so there must be something about doing it in advance.

My point was that taping the probe to the outside of the bucket is more accurate than putting it in your star san solution. I just realized you have a thermowell for that, so put it in the beer not the star san. Every fermentation is different, so why go trying to estimate temp differences if you can measure directly.

I do think it's much better to pitch on the low end of the temp range and let it rise a little bit rather than the other way around. As you mention temp control is most important in the beginning to control off flavors, then letting it warm up a little at the end will help the yeast finish and clean up after themselves.

 

[BigFloyd]

Regarding campden tablets... I thought all the chlorine is driven off during the wort boil making it a non-issue. Is that not accurate?

Should I attempt to account for the 'degree difference' between taping the temp probe to the outside of the bucket when compared to thermowell?

In general, is it a good idea to start low and increase daily? I've heard yeast don't like much change but it sounds like it's better for low temps in the beginning for flavor and high temps in the end for attenuation.

Many municipal water supplies use chloramine. Campden gets rid of chloramine. That's the only practical way to do it. I filter my tap water top get rid of the chlorine.

Taping the probe to the outside of the bucket and insulating over it is quite accurate. The difference between it and a thermowell is not significant.

Pitch low. About 2-3 degrees below where you want to start the ferment. For example, using US-05 pitch at 60-62*F, set the STC-1000 at 64*F for the first few days until the activity drops off then slowly let it raise on it's own a degree or two each day until you get to 68-69*F and hold it there. Stepped-up fermentation is a very useful technique for getting a clean flavor and good cleanup of byproducts.

 

[ericbw]

No,the twang is def from mailard reactions. It's a cooked extract sort of flavor.

"Twang" isn't a thing. It means whatever someone wants. Everyone says extract twang, but that can be scorched, green, or a million things.

 

[unionrdr]

Not exactly. When I first got here,Extract twang referred soley to that cooked extract flavor. Scortched is scortched & related as such. Muddling the terms to mean whatever you want them to isn't clear or concise. It isn't learning correct usage either. If you're clear with us in accurately describing a problem,we can help you quicker. Innacuracy is just a noob trying to describe something they've encountered for the first time. Being corrected on terms is nothing to get angry or embarrased about. It's just part of the learning curve around here. No worries m8.

 

[mbbransc]

Many municipal water supplies use chloramine. Campden gets rid of chloramine. That's the only practical way to do it. I filter my tap water top get rid of the chlorine.

Taping the probe to the outside of the bucket and insulating over it is quite accurate. The difference between it and a thermowell is not significant.

Pitch low. About 2-3 degrees below where you want to start the ferment. For example, using US-05 pitch at 60-62*F, set the STC-1000 at 64*F for the first few days until the activity drops off then slowly let it raise on it's own a degree or two each day until you get to 68-69*F and hold it there. Stepped-up fermentation is a very useful technique for getting a clean flavor and good cleanup of byproducts.

Are municipalities required to divulge chloramine details? I don't see it on my water report. Chloride averages 6.15 ppm and Chlorine averages 1.38 ppm.

 

[chickypad]

Are municipalities required to divulge chloramine details? I don't see it on my water report. Chloride averages 6.15 ppm and Chlorine averages 1.38 ppm.

I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you that Campden costs $2 for 25 tabs at my LHBS and 1 tablet typically treats 20 gallons. In my mind it's pretty cheap insurance and I certainly think it's worth a try if you are struggling with unidentified off flavors. Here is a good article on the subject by AJ, who knows a heck of a lot more about water than me.

 

[mbbransc]

I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you that Campden costs $2 for 25 tabs at my LHBS and 1 tablet typically treats 20 gallons. In my mind it's pretty cheap insurance and I certainly think it's worth a try if you are struggling with unidentified off flavors. Here is a good article on the subject by AJ, who knows a heck of a lot more about water than me.

Good read, thx. Certainly convincing enough for me to give it a try. Along with cooling wort lower for initial pitch as well as modifying my fermentation chamber temps.

Thx all, I'll post back in a couple of weeks with new results.

 

[ericbw]

Not exactly. When I first got here,Extract twang referred soley to that cooked extract flavor. Scortched is scortched & related as such. Muddling the terms to mean whatever you want them to isn't clear or concise. It isn't learning correct usage either. If you're clear with us in accurately describing a problem,we can help you quicker. Innacuracy is just a noob trying to describe something they've encountered for the first time. Being corrected on terms is nothing to get angry or embarrased about. It's just part of the learning curve around here. No worries m8.

Right, but the OP didn't say it tasted scorched. He said it had an off flavor that he called "home brew twang." Twang isn't a taste like sweet, sour, bitter, salty. It's not even like saying fruity or meaty.

Just because he said twang doesn't mean it tastes the same as the next guy who says twang.

 

[duboman]

If you refer back to post #9 and click on the link I provided you can scroll down to Phenolic: Band Aid, plastic, chlorine, medicinal are the typical off flavors associated with chlorines or chloramines being an issue with your brewing water as well as some other associated reasons and flavors. +1 to the camden tablets to eliminate any chlorine associated concerns.

 

[unionrdr]

Right, but the OP didn't say it tasted scorched. He said it had an off flavor that he called "home brew twang." Twang isn't a taste like sweet, sour, bitter, salty. It's not even like saying fruity or meaty.

Just because he said twang doesn't mean it tastes the same as the next guy who says twang.

I refered back to your post. It has meant cooked extract flavor since I've been here. There are different descriptors for different off flavors. Which usually come from fermentation by products that are always there anyway. In a good fermentation,they are in such small quantities that we don't notice them. When the ferment encounters high temps,over/underpitch,etc,these by products PPM's are raised to the point we notice them. Another 3-7 days on average can give the yeast time to clean them up,if the levels aren't too high.
But yeah,folks also have to learn the lingo we use around here to be accurate in describing things in the way that is typically excepted.

 

[flars]

Your tap water contains chlorine and chlorides. Just don't use it for brewing. There are some treatment methods, but wouldn't it just be better to use water that doesn't need treatment. After using 'good' water and something seems off, tracking it down through the brewing process will be much more definitive.

 

[mbbransc]

I bought some campden tablets FRI manufactured by Crosby & Baker. It states it equates to 30 ppm of SO2 in 1 gallon of water. I feel like that is less than most campden tablets (I'm guessing around 65-75ppm). Can anyone confirm how much I need to use in a 5gal batch?