Figuring out an ESB recipe...

[IanP]

I'm trying to settle the grain bill for an ESB and I'm not sure how to judge the balance of the malts. Also, I've haven't made an ale using cane sugar before but I've seen it in many pale ale/ESB recipes so I want to include some to see if I can notice any effect, but without using too much.

Here are three versions I'm looking at, each hitting my intended OG/SRM/IBU etc. My question is - how much difference in taste would there be between the versions? Is using 80L+20L together a good idea to give a balance of flavors, or would the 80L overpower the 20L? Is using all 60L just as good, or too one-dimensional?

Version 1, more 80L, more sugar

6.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 61.54 %
1.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 12.82 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 5.13 %
1.00 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 10.26 %
1.00 lb Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 10.26 %

OG 1050, FG 1014, IBU 33.7, SRM 13.5, ABV 4.7%


Version 2 - all 60L, less sugar, more MO

6.50 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 66.67 %
1.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 17.95 %
1.00 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 10.26 %
0.50 lb Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5.13 %

OG 1050, FG 1014, IBU 33.7, SRM 13.3, ABV 4.7%


Version 3 - balance of 80L, 20L, less sugar

6.25 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 64.10 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 10.26 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 10.26 %
1.00 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 10.26 %
0.50 lb Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5.13 %

OG 1050, FG 1014, IBU 33.7, SRM 12.9, ABV 4.7%

As a newbie to recipe design I'm struggling to figure out the differences these changes would make, so any advice is gratefully received

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

IMO it is better to mix the grains rather than go by the lovibond numbers. That will give it more complexity in taste even though you are getting a similar colour.

As for sugar, instead of cane, why not go for Demerara or Dark brown sugar? Demerara would add a more traditional flavour, or dark brown would give you a deeper colour.

They all look good though, it's just a matter of how you want it. In versions 1 and 2 I think I would replace the smaller amounts of crystal malts with a similar amount of biscuit or victory malts for a little more complexity and a nice little "bite"....But the basis is sound, it's all a matter of taste.

 

[Bob]

In general, when using multiple Crystal malts, the darker malts are more strongly flavored. Thus, if you're going to use two - lighter and darker - you must use significantly more lighter than darker to gain perceptible impact from the lighter Crystal. For example, in your first iteration the 20L and 80L amounts should be reversed.

All three versions suffer from altogether too much Crystal malt. I don't recommend exceeding ten percent of the grist combined. More than that runs the risk of ending up with a cloyingly caramelly-sweet beer.

One of the most famous ESBs, and indeed the standard by which all should be judged, is Fuller's. The Fuller's ESB grist is about 90% pale malt, the balance being made up of maize, caramel and sugar. I'd recommend a grist of 85-90% pale malt, 5-10% 55-60L UK Crystal, and the balance sugar.

I agree that Demerara or Turbinado sugar is preferable to plain ol' table sugar, but YMMV. In amounts less than 10% of the grist, they don't really have much impact on flavor or color.

Tame those Crystal Malt amounts and report back!

Bob

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Hey, IanP, Bob knows his onions on this style, and he has has spoken. You could do much worse than take his lead on this while still making it your own recipe.

 

[IanP]

Hey, IanP, Bob knows his onions on this style, and he has has spoken. You could do much worse than take his lead on this while still making it your own recipe.

Yep, I can see that you're right on that! Thanks for helping

Bob - Many thanks for the advice! I am reworking my grist bill (still a WIP), but I will definitely be following your advice. I lived in west London for many years so I don't need persuading that Fuller's ESB is the gold standard for this style . Since you are clearly well qualified on this topic, what is your opinion on the use of sugar in these pale ale recipes I'm reading? I understand that Fuller's and others use it, but I'm finding that to keep the MO to 85-90%, and with enough crystal to give me the flavor/color I'm seeking, I'm left with only a few ounces of sugar. So I'm wondering if that amount is too small to make any noticeable difference. Should I just ditch it and bump up the other malts a little to hit my OG, or would I be missing some subtle aspect of the style?

 

[ajf]

I usually make my ESB's with 95% MO and 5% Crystal 55. Occasionally, I replace a bit of the MO with some turbinado. If you want to darken the color, you could use an ounce or so of black malt. I also find that using a thick mash (1 qt / lb), and mashing at 150 - 152F (both traditional for English Bitters) produces a beer very similar to the English Best Bitters even with the small amount of crystal. Thinner mashes seem to me to result in a very thin beer.

-a.

 

[Bob]

Since you are clearly well qualified on this topic, what is your opinion on the use of sugar in these pale ale recipes I'm reading? I understand that Fuller's and others use it, but I'm finding that to keep the MO to 85-90%, and with enough crystal to give me the flavor/color I'm seeking, I'm left with only a few ounces of sugar. So I'm wondering if that amount is too small to make any noticeable difference. Should I just ditch it and bump up the other malts a little to hit my OG, or would I be missing some subtle aspect of the style?

First, I think it's important to note that the overwhelming majority of British brewers, large and otherwise, brew beers with a proportion of adjuncts. Whether maize or sugar, it's still in there.

Any amount of sugar used in place of pale malt will lighten the body and act as a nitrogen diluent. Its use in Real Ale is more important as a nitrogen diluent than a body/flavor impactor; since filtration is right out, and there's only so much fining one can do in cask, the less opportunity for chill haze to set in, the better.

If you're not serving your ESB via cask, I really wouldn't worry about sugar in the proportions found in Fuller's. I'd sub in more pale malt and call it a day. Keep the Crystal proportion at 10% or less.

Cheers!

Bob

P.S. Good luck hitting the Fuller's hops profile! I've been trying for years and can't quite nail it.

 

[IanP]

Thanks ajf and Bob for more helpful advice.

Any amount of sugar used in place of pale malt will lighten the body and act as a nitrogen diluent. Its use in Real Ale is more important as a nitrogen diluent than a body/flavor impactor; since filtration is right out, and there's only so much fining one can do in cask, the less opportunity for chill haze to set in, the better.

This is very interesting, I had never heard that the sugar in those recipes may be related to cask ale specifically - thanks for the enlightenment!

P.S. Good luck hitting the Fuller's hops profile! I've been trying for years and can't quite nail it.

As it happens, this time around I am not seeking to clone Fuller's, although I'm sure I'll take my crack at that some other time. Instead, I'm currently aiming for something close to Bateman's XXXB, which has recently arrived in US stores and is wonderful stuff. As you can see from the page, they give some useful pointers for homebrewers.

Last night I did a side-by-side tasting comparison of ESB and XXXB, something I highly recommend for anyone who enjoys this style! I found the beers are very close in colour, with the XXXB slightly darker, and I found the aromas to be almost indistinguishable, to me anyway. I am guessing it is a Goldings aroma, but I'll let other more authoratative voices offer their ideas. Other differences are that Fuller's has a smoother, almost silky, mouthfeel (for the maize?), while XXXB has a noticeably spicier note, which I guess is from the hops. I haven't used Liberty, but that seems to be the hop difference between the two so perhaps that is the source. Overall the two beers are close cousins in taste and drinking experience; both are wonderful beers.

So after all the advice above, I am looking at this new grist -

9.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (1.6 SRM) Grain 85.71 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (150.0 SRM) Grain 2.38 %

On Bob's advice I dropped the sugar. I am wondering if I should also dump the wheat, but it seems the ESBs use something to add mouthfeel/head retention, so I may keep it. I like Laughing_Gnome_Invisible's idea of adding some biscuit or victory, but for this first try I think I will keep things simpler.

I was intending to use the Fuller's yeast (WLP002/1968) since that seems the obvious choice, but I may split the batch and test with another strain as well - perhaps 1318 0r 1099. I have no idea which available strain may be closest to Bateman's, but I assume it's something different to Fuller's.

Any opinions or ideas on the above gratefully received!

 

[ajf]

The caramel looks much better now. That's about what I was using 12 months ago, but I've been gradually reducing it over the last year.
For a bottled version, I would keep the wheat as it will help with the head. I'd drop it for a draught version because the head takes up too much space in the glass.
I think I need to go back to England again and refresh my taste buds, because the bottled versions of English beers you can get in the States just aren't the same as the draught versions.

If you need help drinking it, I'd be happy to offer my services.

Good luck,

-a.