FG, backsweetening and a couple other questions

[nbstl68]

I'm doing a pear cider. I used my own pears, press ect.
1st batch ever.
I've done a LOT of reading on the forum and asked a couple of questions and gotten some great help sp far.
But I really could use some further advice \ thoughts\instruction on the below questions so I don't end up ruining my batch.

So far it does not look ruined although my fermentation has def stopped, (hearing this cna be the case w\ pear ciders due to different amounts or nonfermentible solids \ sugars), so I'm moving on.

I have a couple of questions about my Final Gravity and about back sweetening.

1) I had an initial OG of 1.065. My FG has never dropped below 1.029 sitting in the carboys after racking.
Using an on-line calculator that tells me in theory I now have 4.73% alcohol.
Is that correct?

2) At this low of an alcohol content, will this stuff keep?
I have limited fridge room for all the bottles so they will have to be basement stored w typical temps 60's-low 70's
I'm planning to have a friend help me force carbonate in a keg then bottle from there.
Will stove top pasteurizing help?


3) I'd like to back sweeten it but how do I do that without causing the alcohol level to drop any further?
4.73% is already about as low as I'd think I'd want my cider, right?


4) A lot of people on the thread say to use concentrate to back sweeten.
This may be a dumb question but I'd like some clarification on that.
Do they mean to mix up a batch of apple juice \ pear juice from concentrate and pour it in the cider to taste, or do they mean to putin just the concentrate itself into the cider and stir to dissolve?


5) Maybe this should be the 1st question...Aging: so many different opinions. Some say drink it the second it is done fermenting, others say let it mellow months or longer?!
How do I know what to do with this stuff for best results?
Won't it be aging in the bottles until I get around to drinking it? Will I really notice a difference post bottling?

 

[user 198378]

What type of yeast did you use? Seems like a pretty high FG to me for a cider...sounds like you had a stalled fermentation. This could have been due to not adding Yeast Nutrient or because you didn't wait long enough.

1.029 seems very high to me, not sure you even need to back-sweeten since this is higher FG than most beers. Did you try it?

My ciders usually end up around 1.001 or even below 1.00; yes, below 1.00. This is the scenario when you need to back-sweeten because there is very little sugar left in solution. Your ABV is low because your attenuation was poor.

 

[AidanSavage]

What type of yeast did you use? Seems like a pretty high FG to me for a cider...sounds like you had a stalled fermentation. This could have been due to not adding Yeast Nutrient or because you didn't wait long enough.

1.029 seems very high to me, not sure you even need to back-sweeten since this is higher FG than most beers. Did you try it?

It may not be stalled, being a pear cider ("perry"), not apple cider. Plus pitching the right amount of yeast might allow you to skate by without using nutrient.

I'm doing a pear cider. I used my own pears, press ect.
1st batch ever.
I've done a LOT of reading on the forum and asked a couple of questions and gotten some great help sp far.
But I really could use some further advice \ thoughts\instruction on the below questions so I don't end up ruining my batch.

So far it does not look ruined although my fermentation has def stopped, (hearing this cna be the case w\ pear ciders due to different amounts or nonfermentible solids \ sugars), so I'm moving on.

I have a couple of questions about my Final Gravity and about back sweetening.

1) I had an initial OG of 1.065. My FG has never dropped below 1.029 sitting in the carboys after racking.
Using an on-line calculator that tells me in theory I now have 4.73% alcohol.
Is that correct?

If you've already racked it off primary, you've taken it off the large majority of the yeast. And if you're using the brewer's friend site's calculator, it's accurate enough.

2) At this low of an alcohol content, will this stuff keep?
I have limited fridge room for all the bottles so they will have to be basement stored w typical temps 60's-low 70's
I'm planning to have a friend help me force carbonate in a keg then bottle from there.
Will stove top pasteurizing help?

If you're going to force-carb, you'll need to use camden tablets to kill off the yeast before you keg it. This also means you dont need to pasteurize it, as that's just killing off the yeast with heat instead of chemically. As long as everything's sanitized when you bottle, it should keep a while, though the colder it's kept, the better.

3) I'd like to back sweeten it but how do I do that without causing the alcohol level to drop any further?
4.73% is already about as low as I'd think I'd want my cider, right?

See above. Additionally, make sure you actually taste the cider before you attempt to add anything. If it's at 1.029, that can be plenty sweet already unless you want it to be candy-sweet.

4) A lot of people on the thread say to use concentrate to back sweeten.
This may be a dumb question but I'd like some clarification on that.
Do they mean to mix up a batch of apple juice \ pear juice from concentrate and pour it in the cider to taste, or do they mean to putin just the concentrate itself into the cider and stir to dissolve?

See above. No reason to backsweeten if the taste is already to your liking. As for how to do it with concentrate, you can either dump the can into a large cup, wait for it to thaw, then add it in, or dump it into a cup, add in water (hottest your faucet will give) little by little until it's all melted, then add it. This lets you sweeten it without diluting the taste or ABV by reconstituting the concentrate first.

5) Maybe this should be the 1st question...Aging: so many different opinions. Some say drink it the second it is done fermenting, others say let it mellow months or longer?!
How do I know what to do with this stuff for best results?
Won't it be aging in the bottles until I get around to drinking it? Will I really notice a difference post bottling?

When people say "age it," they dont mean a week or two, they mean a month or two or a year or two. This usually means the higher ABV ciders, ones where it's like you're drinking paint thinner. Lower ABV ciders can be mellow enough that you can drink it after you bottle and chill.

 

[user 198378]

It may not be stalled, being a pear cider ("perry"), not apple cider. Plus pitching the right amount of yeast might allow you to skate by without using nutrient.

What about being pear makes it different?

If you're going to force-carb, you'll need to use camden tablets to kill off the yeast before you keg it.

Camden doesn't kill yeast, it stops yeast reproduction.

 

[Yooper]

What about being pear makes it different?



Camden doesn't kill yeast, it stops yeast reproduction.

Sorry to sound nitpicky- but campden doesn't kill yeast, that's true. But it also does not stop yeast reproduction!

As a matter of fact, it does almost nothing to the yeast- that's why winemakers use it as a matter of course as an antioxidant. Campden is an antioxidant with preservative qualities, and wine yeast (and ale yeast) are quite tolerant of it. I use 50 ppm of campden (sulfite) in all of my wines to protect them from oxidation (and my meads and ciders, too).

I would think that the Fg reading in this case is not correct. If the FG is 1.029, that is so sweet my teeth would hurt and I wouldn't consider sweetening it.

Are you 100% sure that your reading is accurate? It's amazingly high, and I've never heard of a perry stopping there before.

 

[j1n]

was your FG reading with a hydrometer or refractometer?

 

[bernardsmith]

and... if the reading was taken with an hydrometer did you wait until all the CO2 in the perry had dispersed? The gas in the liquid and in the tube would have made your hydrometer ride higher than the amount of residual sugar left in the cider would warrant. A reading of close to 1.030 would mean that your cider would be very sweet. Did you taste it? Was it that sweet (that is the equivalent of about 12 oz of sugar in a gallon of water).

 

[nbstl68]

OK, so as far as aging, sounds like since the ABV is so low probably no need to let it "mature" and\ or could be bad for it anyway?

I used WYeast "smack packs" they call it for ciders and wines.
Treats up to 6 gal and I had under 5 gal in two separate batches.

With regard to the FG accuracy,
My hydrometer shows 1.202 in one batch and just a tad lower 1.18?) in the other.
However, I had the SG (Brix level) tested at a local brew shop, (They also checked for bacteria as I have a little something on the top of the cider in one carboy kind of like oil sheen..they said test came back no bacteria)
They told me my two samples were at 3.5 and 3.6 Brix which equated to 1.029 FG.


Also I read this from the following site:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scrumpy/cider/perry.htm

"Unlike cider apples there is a proportion of unfermentable sugars present, the main contributer being sorbitol. This can lead to final gravities of between 1010 and 1020. The sorbitol does not contribute towards the alcohol content of the perry but will leave a residual sweetness and fuller flavour."

I know people can say anything on the internet but the site seemed to have a lot of specific info.



But in the end it s about taste right? From my reading 1.020 sounds like it should be crazy sweet, but to me the cider is darn tart\puckery.
Since I've never done this before I can't say if it tastes "right" when someone else w experience may spit it out.

I took a small sample and added a lot sugar and IMO it tasted a lot more drinkable.

So, also wondering if it stalled and\or it is just naturally where it is going to be, how would one increase the alcohol content anyway?
Will higher ABV help it keep longer? (I'll have roughly 9 gal which could take me a long time to drink!)

 

[Yooper]

You can't take a brix reading and get 1.029- they are simply wrong about the reading. Once the alcohol is in the mix, the brix reading is not accurate.

If it really is 1.029, it would be so sweet that it would be hard to stomach.

It probably is more like 1.018- which is still pretty darn sweet (and I wouldn't sweeten it more) but 1.029 would be cloyingly sweet. Your other reading is 1.020? Still high, but not as high as first suggested. If it's tart and puckery, your reading is probably still not correct.

Check your hydrometer in plain water- it should read 1.000.

Are you bottling or kegging? If bottling, I would be sure to pasteurize, as your SG (if correct) is in bottle bomb territory, no doubt about it!

 

[nbstl68]

Good to know about the brix. That's what they told me it equated to athe brew shop but I don't know much about birx.
Yes, my readings are and have been 1.020 and what looks like 1.018,(the hydrometer is not numbered btw 1.01 and 1.02, just 5 dashes and it's on the 1st dash under the 1.020) and they have both tested this for several weeks now...no changes, no more offgassing which is another reason why I want to finish the process as I already have too much headroom in the carboy to leave it very long. I have not floated it in water to see if there could be an issue with the Hydrometer itself but will check.

 

[nbstl68]

oh, I plan on force carb in keg then bottling. I have been reading the pasteurization stickey...sounds like that part is easy enough on the stove and a deep pot.

 

[nbstl68]

oh, I plan on force carb in keg then bottling. I have been reading the pasteurization stickey...sounds like that part is easy enough on the stove and a deep pot to 160 deg. I just don't want to destroy any flavor.

 

[AidanSavage]

Thanks for correcting me about the tablets. I knew they were often used, just couldnt recall what specifically for. If I remember correctly, there was something you could use to dose cider with before kegging to inhibit/knock out the yeast?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for correcting me about the tablets. I knew they were often used, just couldnt recall what specifically for. If I remember correctly, there was something you could use to dose cider with before kegging to inhibit/knock out the yeast?

Yes, potassium sorbate is used as a yeast inhibitor. It works better in the presence of sulfites, so campden is added at the same time. It has a couple of caveats, though. One is that the wine/cider must be completely finished and clear, and then racked off of the lees so there is little yeast in suspension. This would not work to stop an active fermentation- only one that is finished, and totally clear and without much yeast in suspension. But once fermentation is finished, the cider can be racked onto the sorbate/campden (dissolved in a little water or some of the cider) and fermentation should not restart.

OP- Can you put your hydrometer in the cider, and take a photo of it at eye level? spin it a bit, to "knock" out any bubbles, and we can see what our opinion of the reading is. Not doubting you, but there is a learning curve and it would be very unusual to have a perry stick at 1.020. And since you say it's tart, that makes me think it may be more like 1.002. But I could be wrong, of course!

 

[nbstl68]

It could also be my untrained tastebuds not describing the taste correctly.
Also, how much does PH affect the taste?
I forgot to mention the shop told me my batches were at 3.5 and 3.6 PH.

 

[nbstl68]

I bought a wine thief so I can fill that and drop the hydro in and take a pic of each batch.

 

[user 198378]

Sorry to sound nitpicky- but campden doesn't kill yeast, that's true. But it also does not stop yeast reproduction!



As a matter of fact, it does almost nothing to the yeast- that's why winemakers use it as a matter of course as an antioxidant. Campden is an antioxidant with preservative qualities, and wine yeast (and ale yeast) are quite tolerant of it. I use 50 ppm of campden (sulfite) in all of my wines to protect them from oxidation (and my meads and ciders, too).

Hahahaha! Good to know, thanks Yooper. I like to know the facts.

This is an aside, but IYO is campden better than sorbate? Can you even compare the two?

 

[nbstl68]

I believe campden better than sorbate are two different things. Campden being more of a trade name for sodium metabisulphite. I've rerad elsewhere you need to use BOTH campden and sorbate at the same time if attempting to hault new fermentation.
...just what I've been reading here.

 

[Yooper]

Hahahaha! Good to know, thanks Yooper. I like to know the facts.

This is an aside, but IYO is campden better than sorbate? Can you even compare the two?

No, they are not the same thing and are not related.

Campden (potassium metabisulfite) is a convenient tablet dose of sulfite. Many winemakers use sulfites routinely in winemaking- me included. I almost never use sorbate- I don't sweeten wines or ciders or meads generally as I like them dry, plus I don't like the taste of sorbate. Many people don't mind the taste of sorbate at all, and use it at the end of every fermentation but I don't.

Sorbate works better in the presence of sulfites, but the sulfite doesn't really "do" anything to the yeast at all. It's there primarily as an antixoidant and preservative.

 

[nbstl68]

Hydrometer pic

 

[AidanSavage]

Looks like your reading is about 1.017. Is that tap water? If so, are you accounting for the effect of temp on the reading?

 

[nbstl68]

Not tap water, that's my cider sample.
I also tested the hudrometer w\ tap as suggested and it was really close to the 1.00 it should be at.
Temp of the cider \ room in the basement is around 66 \ 68 F. So not sure what if any correction needed.

But the FG is quite close to what it has ben for weeks now.
My homebrew shop kept telling me to wait wait wait...I think it is done done done based on other info (see above posts) about pear cider.

Thus I wanted to move on and get it out of the carboy and bottled...Now however, I'm seeing some stuff on the top. I did a separate post inquiring about that this morning.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/whats-stuff-top-507492/#post6553650

 

[Yooper]

I replied to the other thread- but infection is a very bad sign.

 

[nbstl68]

The whole infection thing freaks me out and leaves me a bit confused.
I mean who would drink something that is "infected"?!

Some posts say they have tossed out their batch when their is funk growing.
But a lot of other threads browsed here that had pics of funky stuff way nastier looking are like, hey if it smells\ tastes ok rack it off, leave the top bit behind and drink it anyway...not a lot of people trying to scientifically figure out exactly what they have.

So heat kills stuff generally, right? So, I'm thinking I will rack it off, heat pasteurize it and see from there.

 

[Yooper]

The whole infection thing freaks me out and leaves me a bit confused.
I mean who would drink something that is "infected"?!

Some posts say they have tossed out their batch when their is funk growing.
But a lot of other threads browsed here that had pics of funky stuff way nastier looking are like, hey if it smells\ tastes ok rack it off, leave the top bit behind and drink it anyway...not a lot of people trying to scientifically figure out exactly what they have.

So heat kills stuff generally, right? So, I'm thinking I will rack it off, heat pasteurize it and see from there.

Yes, but heat also boils off alcohol- ethanol will dissipate at a fairly low (not boiling) temperature.

If it tastes ok, it is ok. If it tastes terrible, then it's bad.

 

[nbstl68]

ok, well that gives me some hope.
Thx