Fermentation

[boostsr20]

Most of us = you and Earwig

My post refers to a logical explanation of the discussion at hand. Not so off topic I think. Why do things need to add up? Why call him a liar? Oddly enough, fermentation will not be 100% the same for everyone. There are so many factors that go into it like yeast health, ambient temperature, ambient pressure, and so many others. I would go as far as to say who are you to say he is wrong? Maybe he doesnt. I have had fermenters not bubble or have little activity in the airlocks. My previous example of my cider (2.5 gallons in a 3 gallon fermenter) shows that it doesnt always happen. But then again you have to trust me that it really did happen or maybe I am lying too.

I didn't mean to sound like I was calling him a liar. Thats not what I meant at all. But it my mind, it doesn't add up. Thats why I posed the question. To try and understand better. We are in the same state with nearly identical conditions most of the time. Once again, its a simple question with lots of complex answer which is why I asked about his setup. Revvy, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling you a liar. My bad. I'm really just trying to understand this because no one else seems to have those kind of results and I know people on a big brewery scale that don't ever have problems with seeing fermentation signs through Co2 exiting the fermenter.

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

 

[earwig]

I wouldnt go as far to say that brewing data and the Son of Sam are on the same level. I would call that an exaggeration of extreme proportion. The only people who lie to prove a point are the people who are trying to defraud someone. I highly doubt that he is trying to defraud you. It could be a slight exaggeration, but not a lie. And people tend to get upset when they are called liars in a debate. I would be careful of the tone you put in your posts. No one likes someone who falsely calls someone a liar or cheat. I personally would be upset too.

Well I will simply say that I believe you and Revvy are full of Sh*t for whatever reason... most likely just trying to prove a point. Since Revvy felt the need to post an example of someone mentioning that their beer turned out fine without any bubbles... I'll do the same, read this post in response to Revvy from someone else:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/fermentation-didnt-start-208516/index2.html#post2437085

Flexing your experience muscle doesn't make it correct. However since you went there, I have been home brewing for 12 years and work at a commercial brewery where we see millions of barrels. We expect to see 2.5 volumes of CO2 per volume of beer and that number is also supported by the IBD so it is international. I have only had one 1 brew at home where it didn't bubble and it tasted like crap.

Revvy has a habit of using his post count or experience as some proof that he knows more than everyone else. I don't care if he is handsome with gray hair and drives like crap. What he says contradicts what everyone I know in real life experiences.

 

[earwig]

Most of us = you and Earwig

BS "Most of us" equals EVERYONE who experiences airlock activity in 99% of their brews. I know MANY people who brew PERSONALLY. These are people I know in real life and these are observations that I have witnessed IN PERSON, MYSELF. Unless you are at everyone's house and watch their airlock, you cannot say who is having airlock activity and who isn't. Give it up.

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

Well I will simply say that I believe you and Revvy are full of Sh*t for whatever reason... most likely just trying to prove a point. Since Revvy felt the need to post an example of someone mentioning that their beer turned out fine without any bubbles... I'll do the same, read this post in response to Revvy from someone else:

First off Sir, I wouldnt say that Revvy and I are against you. We just disagree. The only point I am trying to make is that every batch is different. Unless you brew professionally and are geared to make batches exactly the same each time, things will vary. I am not here trying to flex my post count as that is generally WRONG. I have said that at least once in the post on this thread. Just because we disagree with your thought process doesnt mean you or anyone else are the 100% correct answer. Same goes in reverse. I still question your brewing practices and thought processes on the matter of fermentation. Doesnt mean you are wrong or that I am right. Thats usually the idea behind a spirited debate such as this.

Secondly, I wont begin to even quantify the first comment you made about what we are full of because that is just plain rude and tactless. But hey, that statement goes to show me how open you are to other opinions. I guessing you read Palmer and think that it is the "word of God" in terms of brewing and you must also operate on the premise of "your way or the highway". Its ok man, keep brewing and living like that and see where it gets you.

 

[arch1tect]

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

I didn't mean to sound like I was calling him a liar. Thats not what I meant at all. But it my mind, it doesn't add up. Thats why I posed the question. To try and understand better. We are in the same state with nearly identical conditions most of the time. Once again, its a simple question with lots of complex answer which is why I asked about his setup. Revvy, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling you a liar. My bad. I'm really just trying to understand this because no one else seems to have those kind of results and I know people on a big brewery scale that don't ever have problems with seeing fermentation signs through Co2 exiting the fermenter.

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

Earwig, take a lesson from this man who apologizes for an errant comment.

I think it is only you because you two are the only ones questioning this on THIS thread. Like I said before, its probably an exaggeration, not fact. I personally have had two batches that I can think of where fermentation was either not visible via airlock or it was very slow via airlock. Breweries are designed for consistancy therefore they should see the same thing everytime. All I am saying is that if I were to calculate the times I have seen slow or non existant signs of airlock activity, it would be 20% of the time. That is actual fact from my number of batches brewed compared to batches that showed little or no sign of airlock activity. Those batches were ciders and a steam beers (lager at ale temp).

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

Well put.

 

[earwig]

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't.

He (Revvy) said there was no activity. I also said from the beginning... what I was posting was true in "typical" set ups... 5 gallon batches in a 6 or 6 1/2 gallon bucket or carboy. All I was trying to say is that... In this typical setup, there WILL be airlock activity 99 times out of 100 unless the fermenter is leaky or there is a problem. My experience, what I have read and what others I know in real life have told me leads me to this conclusion. Now to quote Revvy... "I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times."

 

[boostsr20]

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

Well said. Thats exactly what I said earlier about Revvy. He's a seasoned brewer that knows to just leave it alone so he probably just misses the activity a lot.

But now to offer a counter to your spot on points. If the OP wasn't watching the airlock for the first two days, then why would he need to break out the hydrometer? Seemingly your implying that the airlock does have a purpose to show that there may be a fermentation problem if after 2 days of closely watching it, he hasn't seeing a single bubble. Which is my only point in this while thread. If your new to brewing, watching your pale like a hawk, and don't see a bubble within 2 days then its a good idea to break out the hydrometer.

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

He (Revvy) said there was no activity. I also said from the beginning... what I was posting was true in "typical" set ups... 5 gallon batches in a 6 or 6 1/2 gallon bucket or carboy. All I was trying to say is that... In this typical setup, there WILL be airlock activity 99 times out of 100 unless the fermenter is leaky or there is a problem. My experience, what I have read and what others I know in real life have told me leads me to this conclusion. Now to quote Revvy... "I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times."

I apologize for the off topic remark I am about to make.

He said that, I didnt. I just gave specific examples and numbers as to batches I have made that weren't typical. I am not doubting your personal brewing experiences. I wasnt there so I dont know. But calling someone a liar and then full of Sh*t is crossing the line. Just try to be a little more tollerant.

 

[arch1tect]

He (Revvy) said there was no activity. I also said from the beginning... what I was posting was true in "typical" set ups... 5 gallon batches in a 6 or 6 1/2 gallon bucket or carboy. All I was trying to say is that... In this typical setup, there WILL be airlock activity 99 times out of 100 unless the fermenter is leaky or there is a problem. My experience, what I have read and what others I know in real life have told me leads me to this conclusion. Now to quote Revvy... "I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times."

If you didn't observe the activity did it happen?

 

[boostsr20]

I apologize for the off topic remark I am about to make.

He said that, I didnt. I just gave specific examples and numbers as to batches I have made that weren't typical. I am not doubting your personal brewing experiences. I wasnt there so I dont know. But calling someone a liar and then full of Sh*t is crossing the line. Just try to be a little more tollerant.

You still never answered my hypothetically posed question. If someone brews a 1000 batches and tells you that half of them had no visual signs of airlock activity do you 100% believe them. Or does a light bulb go off in your head trying to troubleshoot their problem?

 

[arch1tect]

Well said. Thats exactly what I said earlier about Revvy. He's a seasoned brewer that knows to just leave it alone so he probably just misses the activity a lot.

But now to offer a counter to your spot on points. If the OP wasn't watching the airlock for the first two days, then why would he need to break out the hydrometer? Seemingly your implying that the airlock does have a purpose to show that there may be a fermentation problem if after 2 days of closely watching it, he hasn't seeing a single bubble. Which is my only point in this while thread. If your new to brewing, watching your pale like a hawk, and don't see a bubble within 2 days then its a good idea to break out the hydrometer.

But isn't it a good idea to use the hydrometer anyway? I usually wait 3 or 4 days before I do a reading. Last batch actually didn't start until the 4th day so I had to delay my reading and in fact it barely bubbled at all. I think I heard it once but that was it.

 

[boostsr20]

I never use a hydrometer until I transfer to secondary which is after a week and a half or so depending on the recipe. And yes, I still use a secondary despite what everyone says about using a primary only but thats a whole other discussion that I'm sure I'm wrong about. LOL

 

[earwig]

I apologize for the off topic remark I am about to make.

He said that, I didnt. I just gave specific examples and numbers as to batches I have made that weren't typical. I am not doubting your personal brewing experiences. I wasnt there so I dont know. But calling someone a liar and then full of Sh*t is crossing the line. Just try to be a little more tollerant.

I suppose I crossed the line a bit; I'm sorry. I will say though that my views on what I consider 'truths' about airlock activity are unchanged. I'll talk to the head brewer at Harvest Moon Brewery in New Brunswick NJ about this again this weekend and see if he has an opinion or take on it... Maybe Revvy can explain his setup and give specific examples of beer that he has brewed that showed no airlock activity. Something tells me none of them were 5 gallon batches in a 6 1/2 gallon carboy with a fairly air-tight lid and airlock.

 

[boostsr20]

If you didn't observe the activity did it happen?

For scientific purposes, you can't make statements on things you didn't monitor. Too many semantics.

 

[Revvy]

Gee fellas, I wasn't going to bother with this stupidity again, despite being called everything from a liar to a serial killer, but I'm just going to point one thing out to you and then go back to doing what matters, and helping folks on here.

It's not TOO much of an EXAGGERATION to say that on a typical week, especially one where I'm off work like I will be next week, that my fermentation closet looks something like this, plus my three buckets full of beer, wines, ciders a meads. All different volumes and sizes of fermenters, different types of airlock, or blow off tubes or whatever.

In fact THIS was the output of the brew day in my sigline..ONE BREW DAY...

That's what, 7 different fermenters all pitched on the same day???? 5 meads, a barelyine and a partigyle from there.....

I would be LYING if I didn't say that there aren't many a day where I can have 2, 2.5 gallon fermenters of the same 5 gallon splt batch going, or 5 and 2, 2.5 gallons brewed in the same weekend, or a 5 gallon batch split into 5 1 gallon batches....all in one place where it's easy to see whether an airlock is going or not......

And that could be what my closet looks like, 1 or 2 weekends a month for the last several years.

Someone would have to be both blind AND deaf not to be able to note whether airlocks are bubbling or not.

You don't think that because I write about this so much, that I wouldn't check just about EVERYTIME I have brews going on in there whether or not there's airlock bubbling or not, so I can KEEP saying that 50% I don't have airlock activity?????


Gee if 2 fermenters are sitting next to each other where I pitched yeast in both of them 24 hours before, or 72 hours for that matter, you don't think I could tell that 1 is bubbling and they other isn't......and that, last I checked is 50% isn't it....

You think I need to lie or exagerate to prove that airlocks don't matter, especially when I have probably 10,000 posts of folks like the OP whose airlocks didn't bubble and their beers turned out fine???? I really need to lie or stretch the truth about my own, when I cited 2 folks posts from last week, and at least 2 other brewers jumped in here and said that sometimes their airlock don't blip either?

All I need to do is an advance post search to find response from folks who went and took an hydro reading when their airlock wasn't bubbling. I have more than enough of those to back my argument up without need to lie or even exaggarate......

If I'm going to waste my time making sh!T up, it's gonna be about my penis size to some super model, not how many of my fermentations bubble or not.

Like I said, I'm going back to answer more questions....I'm not going to waste my time with this any more......

 

[earwig]

Gee fellas, I wasn't going to bother with this stupidity again, despite being called everything from a liar to a serial killer, but I'm just going to point one thing out to you and then go back to doing what matters, and helping folks on here.

LOL I did not call you a serial killer, I was just proving a point that people lie. I said I was sorry for saying you are full of BS as well. So, can you tell me... have you ever brewed a 5 gallon batch of beer in a 6.5 gallon bucket and not had airlock activity?

 

[Revvy]

of beer in a 6.5 gallon bucket and not had airlock activity?

Last post on this topic in here.......

As I've said over and over....About 50% of the time!!!! And in 6.5 gallon carboys, and 5 gallon or 6 gallon better bottles and any other combination you can name...Last I counted I had 11 fermenters.....or is that 12 now, I just borrowed a buddie's bucket?

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

LOL I did not call you a serial killer, I was just proving a point that people lie. I said I was sorry for saying you are full of BS as well. So, can you tell me... have you ever brewed a 5 gallon batch of beer in a 6.5 gallon bucket and not had airlock activity?

I will jump in on this and say I have. I recently brewed a Anchor Steam clone and fermented it in a 6.5 gallon Ale Pail. I didnt use a starter first off. I directly pitched a vial of White Labs 810 (San Fran Lager). Secondly, it sat at about a constant 68F in my fermentation chest. The airlock showed no signs (that I saw) of activity. After about ten days (I was away for a few days), I opened the lid to see if any signs of krausen formation existed. There was a resin ring on the side of the bucket and the hydrometer reading was about where it should be for FG. I also checked the lid a couple of times during the first days to make sure it was seated tightly since the airlock was silent. A couple of days later, after another gravity check, I called fermentation complete.

Another example, as previous stated, was my small batch of cider. I fermented that in the same fashion as above but I used SAFALE S-04 dry yeast and also directly pitched it. Granted it was in a 3 gallon better bottle, but the batch was 2.5 gallons. So the head space was still not out of the range of the widely accepted normal. It was a slower fermentation than I expected (2 weeks from 1.059 to 1.010).

 

[earwig]

Last post on this topic in here.......

As I've said over and over....About 50% of the time!!!! And in 6.5 gallon carboys, and 5 gallon or 6 gallon better bottles and any other combination you can name...Last I counted I had 11 fermenters.....or is that 12 now, I just borrowed a buddie's bucket?

You cut off the batch size of my quote so I'll guess that they were 2 gallon batches. If not I simply don't believe you :-D

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

You still never answered my hypothetically posed question. If someone brews a 1000 batches and tells you that half of them had no visual signs of airlock activity do you 100% believe them. Or does a light bulb go off in your head trying to troubleshoot their problem?

Sorry for the delay in answering. Considering that my numbers and specifics have lead me to an approximate 20% of batches showing no signs, yeah I could believe that. I have no reason not to. Does it makes sense to me? Conventional thinking may lead to a no answer, but everyone has different experiences. The way I think about it may be different compared to what actually happened. Revvy has obviously brewed more than I have and if his batch count is really in the thousands, it is quite possible that it may have happened. I believe in the laws of averages and large numbers. And who is to say he has a problem? I feel that if 100% of his batches turn into tasty beer, then no harm no foul. Beer is beer, unless it sucks. Only thing that matters is that it is consumed and enjoyed. Who cares if the airlock was bubbling or not when the beer gets to the glass? As long as it looks, tastes, and acts like beer. Tasty is tasty in my book.

 

[boostsr20]

Laws of averages is what has me confused. Like I said, I have a 100% rate but then again I've only done one cider, 1 mead,1 braggot and all of my beers have been traditional ales. Its not like its a big deal to me or anything, I just like to learn new things and this is the best place to do it. I thought we'd get a more informative response from Revvy, but once again its a post flexing his "experience" muscle. But yeah, I agree. As long as its tasty beer in the end, who cares?

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

Laws of averages is what has me confused. Like I said, I have a 100% rate but then again I've only done one cider, 1 mead,1 braggot and all of my beers have been traditional ales. Its not like its a big deal to me or anything, I just like to learn new things and this is the best place to do it. I thought we'd get a more informative response from Revvy, but once again its a post flexing his "experience" muscle. But yeah, I agree. As long as its tasty beer in the end, who cares?

Well, hopefully in all this "debating" you might have got something good out of it. Either way, I think we should all sit back, kick up our feet, and enjoy a tasty cold beverage.

 

[earwig]

Well, hopefully in all this "debating" you might have got something good out of it. Either way, I think we should all sit back, kick up our feet, and enjoy a tasty cold beverage.

I agree. Sometimes I should just 'let things go' as well but when something doesn't make sense to me I have a NEED to figure it out.

I work with a chemist and had him read through this thread. After the holidays we are going to do experiments with some typical ales/lagers. He is also going to perform some (what he considers) basic calculations to see if it is possible for a typical 5 gallon batch of ale to ferment completely and not produce enough co2 to make an airlock bubble.

 

[earwig]

One last post before I bookmark this and come back to it at a later date... To those who claim there was NO airlock activity... where did the co2 go? The co2 must displace the air in the fermenter and push it somewhere.... if there isn't a leak it has nowhere else to go except through the airlock right? How can you debate this? Unless there is some crazy temp changes there absolutely must be airlock activity if beer is fermenting. If you claim you didn't see it... you just missed it.

 

[rjwhite41]

I think I kind of started this by saying I was surprised Revvy's airlock's only bubble 50% of the time. I have been brewing for 13 years and to the best of my knowledge I have had airlock activity every single time. It doesn't make any sense that in a sealed container that you couldn't (as earwig has pointed out). Yeast eats sugar and creates alcohol and CO2. That is a scientific fact. Due to the laws of nature, the CO2 has to go somewhere and cannot be absorbed into the liquid, at ale temps for sure, in the kind of concentrations that is kicking off. I, however, never argue this fact with Revvy and I never will (unless you call this arguing) because the best advice to all the beginners who read these posts is that airlock activity is not a reliable indicator of fermentation. Take your hydrometer and measure the gravity. I don't touch a beer unless I believe there is a problem or I believe fermentation is done. My beers don't get measured more than twice very often, just the OG and the FG. I don't even usually check it three days apart (which is also wise advice for beginners) because by the time I keg it, it has fermented conditioned and cleared. If the yeast drops out virtually completely then I already know it is done. Anyway, to end my rambling 2 cents, the advice Revvy gives is excellent advice to beginners on this and most other subjects that I have seen him talk about but I do wonder why he has results that are outside the norm for me and many many other brewers (I would even venture to guess the vast majority of brewers). I also find it funny that whenever someone challenges him someone else from this forum always defends him to the death.

 

[earwig]

I also find it funny that whenever someone challenges him someone else from this forum always defends him to the death.

Yes he is helpful to all brewers who ask questions on here and I always appreciate his help. I agree hydrometer readings are important and a must in order to determine if beer is done fermenting etc... I wasn't trying to start a fight but to say that a beer can ferment in a tightly sealed container and not produce bubbles in an airlock is just asinine.

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

I also find it funny that whenever someone challenges him someone else from this forum always defends him to the death.

Its also funny that someone not even involved in this decides to chime in. Did you actually read the all the posts? I wasnt even close to defending him. I was giving specific examples of personal instances where I have had the same things happen. Guess what kiddies, it is possible. Just because you never saw it happen doesnt mean that it could never happen. CO2 can either be absorbed by the solution or expand to cause air to be expelled via the airlock. Some fermentations are more active than others. Ever had a beer that when racking to the secondary or other vessel had lots of tiny CO2 bubbles? But I highly doubt that you will believe this. Many of the people who have read this and either dont care or think it is plausible have moved on. But the people who care to personally attack the other sides view continue to post and continue to try to degrade. Way to go guys. You are now "those" guys.

 

[earwig]

CO2 can either be absorbed by the solution or expand to cause air to be expelled via the airlock. Some fermentations are more active than others. Ever had a beer that when racking to the secondary or other vessel had lots of tiny CO2 bubbles? But I highly doubt that you will believe this. Many of the people who have read this and either dont care or think it is plausible have moved on. But the people who care to personally attack the other sides view continue to post and continue to try to degrade. Way to go guys. You are now "those" guys.

you are wrong. The amount of co2 released is a standard, can be measured and does not vary between brews where there is the same amount of fermentable sugars. Unless you have capped off the fermenter and carbed your beer there is way too much co2 created in a fermentation for it not to cause a properly sealed fermenter with airlock to bubble. If you don't see bubbles in the airlock of a primary fermenter you either missed them or don't have a good seal.