Feeling stupid, and hateful

[kanzimonson]

I just got a set of four ball lock cornies from morebeer, took them all apart, cleaned, replaced o-rings, and now I'm having big problems with all of them. I'm really regretting switching from pin locks now...

Basically, hardly any liquid is coming out. Gas sounds like it's going in fine, I'm not having any leaks. But when I attach a picnic tap, I can only get the tiniest dribble of liquid out, if any at all. Here are all the things I checked:

-yes I have CO2 in the tank
-yes the tank is open
-yes the gas is turned up (to about 6psi)
-yes I put the In and Out diptubes on the correct posts
-i've tried different disconnects to see if one was broken
-i took the posts back off and tried to reseat the poppets

One thing I only tried once but need to check again is the length of the liquid diptubes. On one of the kegs I hooked the gas line to the liquid post to see if there was some sort of clog. I could hear the gas bubbling in, but now that I think about it, it sounded like it wasn't entering as quickly as it was through the gas post. At the time I just thought it must be because I don't have much liquid in there (like 2qts of a PBW solution), but I'm wondering if there's a possibility the diptubes are too long and they're restricting the liquid flow? Seems crazy, especially since I received the kegs pressurized with a bit of soda in each. And the fact that I'm having trouble with all four points to human error.

Finally, I'm noticing it's taking a surprising amount of force to get the disconnects on the post, compared to what it took with my previous pin locks. Is this normal and I never knew? I mean, I can get the disconnects over the first hump no problem, but to get them to lock onto the second, lower hump I have to put some serious pressure on them. Not all of my weight or anything, but a strong push.

Help please!

 

[EonBlue66]

The gas and liquid posts are different, I've noticed that when I swap them I have all kinds of problems getting the disconnects on...maybe yours are swapped?

Does co2 come out when you lift the relief valve?

 

[prosper]

yeah, it's pretty easy to put the gas post on the liquid stud and vice versa when re-assembling kegs. With enough force, you can even get the connectors on them. I can't imagine that it'd work well, though. Make sure you have the right poppet & post on the correct stud on the keg

 

[mattd2]

Take your QDs apart and just check for any flaws in there, just one more point of failure to tick off as checked. As for the hard to get on/off QD, try a bit of keg lube on the post o ring (that sounds bad doesn't it )

 

[BargainFittings]

Did you keg lube all the o-rings and poppets?

 

[Kahuna]

A couple of thoughts:
1. Is your beer dip tube obstructed in any way? Can you push a long dip tube cleaner all the way through it?
2. Have you cranked the C02 up to 20 psi and sprayed soapy water over all connections on the top (lid, pressure release, ball lock connections) and checked for leaks?

 

[Hammy71]

Also you said that you have the gas and the beer posts on the right way......are the kegs from different manufacturers? I've found they're not interchangeable either. Just a thought.......

 

[kanzimonson]

I forgot to buy the keglube so I just assembled without it. Do you think this really could completely block flow? Guess I'll have to pick some up at the LHBS and try it out.

When I put the posts back on, I think I put them in the same place as they were - I used the untouched kegs as models, but just to be sure, the post with a 12-point "nut" is for gas and the post with the hex "nut" is for liquid?

I don't think there's an obstruction in the diptube because I'm having this problem in four different kegs, but I guess I need to check to be sure.

 

[ScubaSteve]

The liquid out post has a larger rib on it. Put the black disconnect on that one. I'm so guilty of manhandling these QD's; I've had a few beers in me and resorted to hammering the post on .

If it doesn't go on easily, don't force it. Something is wrong. It should click right on.

Also be sure to look on the top of the keg, and it'll tell you where to put the posts...there's an IN and OUT right by the lid opening.

If your diptubes are not obstructed, you have the QD's on right, and you have a good seal, it is almost physically impossible for the keg not to dispense.

 

[motobrewer]

i've never used keg lube. i've always meant to buy some, but haven't...

i would start with poppets and disconnects if you're confident it's not a leak. i mean, they're pretty simple devices. are you sure your liquid line connector is working?

 

[IrregularPulse]

The post with the notch in the post base is gas, without the notch is liquid. The lack of keg lube won't restrict flow. Their though is that your keg is not sealed somewhere, thus leaking the pressure that would otherwise force your liquid up and out. Also, I'm not sure how high 2Q fills a keg, but you're working with a foamy PBW solution, you may just be sucking foam out. Also, are you waiting until you can hear the CO2 stop going into the keg before trying to pull the tap handle? You're either not supplying pressure, not holding pressure, or there's a physical blockage somewhere.

 

[BargainFittings]

When you clean your kegs and everything is squeaky clean the o-rings are not lubricated and can be hard to seal as IrregularPulse said.

Getting some lubricant on all the rubber parts will allow them to seat properly and seal the keg.

I would set your regulator to 10 - 15 psi, fill the keg with plain water and try sealing the lid. Spray the lid and posts with soapy water or starsan so you can see any leaks.

Take your picnic tap apart to be sure its not restricted with any gunk if its still not flowing.

 

[Special Hops]

Why did you switch from Pin-locks?

And do you still have them and are looking to get rid of them? I am just down the road in greenville SC.

 

[Catt22]

I suspect the problem is with the poppets. Not all poppets are the same and with used kegs you can never be certain that the correct poppets have been installed. Additionally, there's the chance that you got them mixed up between kegs when you had them dismantled. One tip off is the difficulty with the QD. That is caused by the poppet not pushing in properly when you put the connector on the post. You can check the poppet by pushing down on it with a small screwdriver or something similar. It should push down with very little force and you should be able to move it down at least 1/8"-1/4". Are all of your kegs of the same manufacturer? Look for the mfg stamping on the side of the keg, ie Firestone, Challenger, Cornelius etc. Different mfgs probably means different types of poppets. Something like 70% or more of all kegs use the same common type of poppet. I would remove the keg posts from all of the kegs and compare the poppets. The poppets for any single keg should both be identical. If not, then there was definitely a mix up somewhere down the road. The only thing you can do at that point is try to pair them up visually and try them out. If they don't work, switch to a different pair and try again. This is a PIA, but unless you are a poppet expert, which I am not, it's the only way I know to solve the problem. While you are comparing the poppets, look for bent ones or ones that have distorted feet. The feet should span the top of the threaded port on the keg (actually, the top of the dip tube). The feet should be symmetrical.

You can usually identify the In vs Out posts one of three ways and most kegs have more than one indicator. There will be a "dimple" or what looks like a hole in the top of the rubber handles on each side of the in post. Think hole=in to remember. In and Out may be embossed in the top of the keg near the posts or embossed in the rubber handle. The in post nut will have what looks like a star washer at it's base or the hex nut part of the post will have horizontal slits right on the hex. You can often feel for the correct post in the dark or dim lighting conditions if feel for the "dimples", the star nut or the slots in the hex part of the post. Sometimes difficulty fitting a QD on a post can be caused by a worn or deformed post O-ring. This is easy to check and fix with a new O-ring. I buy the post and dip tube O-rings by the 100 pack from McMaster-Carr. They cost only pennies that way and I replace them often. At that price, it's not worth the aggravation to try to get a lot of mileage out of them.

I prefer Lubrifilm for the rubber parts. I've been using the same single can of it for about five years. A little goes a long way and it's a lot less messy than the regular keg lube silicone grease that many use. I hate that stuff. It will not wash off with any known cleaning agent that I know of.

If you have a leaking keg lid, try straightening the legs that apply pressure when you push the clamp thingy down. The short legs with the rubber tips should be at a right angle with the arm of the clamp. If not, use a pair of vice grips to bend the legs so that they are at 90 degrees. Remove the rubber feet before you do this to avoid damaging them. The 90 degree bend will provide the optimum down force when you push down the clamp lever thingy and this will squash the big O-ring more firmly for a good seal even at low keg pressure. It can be frustrating when a keg will hold at high pressures, but not at low serving pressures. This is the fix.

Post back and let us know what you discover and if you got the problem solved.

 

[mattd2]

Exhuasted Catt? that post had a huge information density!
One thing I just throught of: If you want to check if it is the poppets giving you grief, you could always take the kegs/QDs appart and reassemble them with no poppets, then test and if it is good it means you have a poppet issue and it's time to start Catt's procedure. Just remember to not have any pressure in the keg if you have no QD connected to the out post!

 

[Ricand]

My bet's on Cat22, I had this identical problem. Now I NEVER take apart more than one Corny at a time and reassemble with the same parts. I've also watched a friend struggle through this after ignoring my advice to do them one at a time. Dip tubes are very different on them too, but they are easier to tell since some are bent and others are straight.

 

[Catt22]

Exhuasted Catt? that post had a huge information density!
One thing I just throught of: If you want to check if it is the poppets giving you grief, you could always take the kegs/QDs appart and reassemble them with no poppets, then test and if it is good it means you have a poppet issue and it's time to start Catt's procedure. Just remember to not have any pressure in the keg if you have no QD connected to the out post!

That's exactly how I figured out that one of my kegs had a poppet problem and not a bent post or whatever. I removed the post, just as you suggest and when it slipped right into the QD, I immediately knew what the problem was. I just switched out the poppet with a spare I had and the problem vanished. Watch out for a swollen post O-ring as I mentioned. Those can really fool you and it's difficult to spot the problem visually.

 

[Catt22]

My bet's on Cat22, I had this identical problem. Now I NEVER take apart more than one Corny at a time and reassemble with the same parts. I've also watched a friend struggle through this after ignoring my advice to do them one at a time. Dip tubes are very different on them too, but they are easier to tell since some are bent and others are straight.

+1 Yes, disassemble the kegs one at a time. I sometimes do several at a time, but I keep all of the parts with each keg. Matter of fact, I ususally put all the small parts, including the dip tubes, inside the keg for the Oxyclean soak. That way I know what belongs to what. Kegs are simple if you know how they work and how to quickly troubleshoot them. There are really only a few things that can go wrong and once you've experienced those, it's easy street from there on.

 

[wyzazz]

Switch to Sanke's and sell your cornies, just my $.02.

 

[zymurgy101]

I suspect the problem is with the poppets. Not all poppets are the same and with used kegs you can never be certain that the correct poppets have been installed. Additionally, there's the chance that you got them mixed up between kegs when you had them dismantled. One tip off is the difficulty with the QD. That is caused by the poppet not pushing in properly when you put the connector on the post. You can check the poppet by pushing down on it with a small screwdriver or something similar. It should push down with very little force and you should be able to move it down at least 1/8"-1/4". Are all of your kegs of the same manufacturer? Look for the mfg stamping on the side of the keg, ie Firestone, Challenger, Cornelius etc. Different mfgs probably means different types of poppets. Something like 70% or more of all kegs use the same common type of poppet. I would remove the keg posts from all of the kegs and compare the poppets. The poppets for any single keg should both be identical. If not, then there was definitely a mix up somewhere down the road. The only thing you can do at that point is try to pair them up visually and try them out. If they don't work, switch to a different pair and try again. This is a PIA, but unless you are a poppet expert, which I am not, it's the only way I know to solve the problem. While you are comparing the poppets, look for bent ones or ones that have distorted feet. The feet should span the top of the threaded port on the keg (actually, the top of the dip tube). The feet should be symmetrical.

You can usually identify the In vs Out posts one of three ways and most kegs have more than one indicator. There will be a "dimple" or what looks like a hole in the top of the rubber handles on each side of the in post. Think hole=in to remember. In and Out may be embossed in the top of the keg near the posts or embossed in the rubber handle. The in post nut will have what looks like a star washer at it's base or the hex nut part of the post will have horizontal slits right on the hex. You can often feel for the correct post in the dark or dim lighting conditions if feel for the "dimples", the star nut or the slots in the hex part of the post. Sometimes difficulty fitting a QD on a post can be caused by a worn or deformed post O-ring. This is easy to check and fix with a new O-ring. I buy the post and dip tube O-rings by the 100 pack from McMaster-Carr. They cost only pennies that way and I replace them often. At that price, it's not worth the aggravation to try to get a lot of mileage out of them.

I prefer Lubrifilm for the rubber parts. I've been using the same single can of it for about five years. A little goes a long way and it's a lot less messy than the regular keg lube silicone grease that many use. I hate that stuff. It will not wash off with any known cleaning agent that I know of.

If you have a leaking keg lid, try straightening the legs that apply pressure when you push the clamp thingy down. The short legs with the rubber tips should be at a right angle with the arm of the clamp. If not, use a pair of vice grips to bend the legs so that they are at 90 degrees. Remove the rubber feet before you do this to avoid damaging them. The 90 degree bend will provide the optimum down force when you push down the clamp lever thingy and this will squash the big O-ring more firmly for a good seal even at low keg pressure. It can be frustrating when a keg will hold at high pressures, but not at low serving pressures. This is the fix.

Post back and let us know what you discover and if you got the problem solved.

+1

For me, the replacement poppet looked and seemingly fit like the original; however, it would not allow any more than a dribble to come out. After trying about six different style poppets, I finally purchased a new post\poppet set from kegconnection and remedied the problem.

A similar incident was caused by hop pellet debris which clogged the poppet.

Nice bit of info provided by Catt22 which took me quite some time to discover. I wish this thread had been posted about two months ago! lol

 

[kanzimonson]

Well, I'm still having problems. To answer some questions:

-All my posts are labelled In and Out so there's no confusing there. I've got the 12 point post on the In, and the hex post on the Out for every keg.
-The kegs are not leaking. CO2 comes out when I lift the pressure relief.
-I'm using grey for gas and black for beer.
-All the poppets are easily depressed with a screwdriver.
-When the keg is pressurized, and I depress the Out poppet with a screwdriver, liquid DOES come shooting out. (this just baffles me more)
-I have tried three different black QDs with the same results.
-I can rinse water through my picnic tap just fine.
-I'm having the same problem when it's hooked up to a tap tower.
-They're all Cornelius brand kegs.

The one thing I haven't done yet is take apart every post and compare poppets to make sure I've got them right, however, when I first started cleaning them I was only doing one at a time. Eventually I did end up taking apart the last two together so I may have mixed some parts here.

I feel like the problem might be with the disconnects? I feel like they're not depressing the poppets enough to get the liquid out? But then it seems unlikely that I'd have three broken ones.

This is killing me.

 

[Catt22]

OK,

So, if you can get beer to flow when depressing the out post poppet, that means that it's not a problem with the kegs. Next I would check the black liquid out disconnects. Take them apart. You can unscrew the plug in the top. Inside there will be a spring, a plunger, a small O-ring on the end of the plunger and another much larger thin O-ring that seals the top plug. That's it and it they can really only be reassembled one way. When there is a problem, it usually has something to do with the small O-ring, but that happens most often on the gray gas connectors, not so much with the beer out ones. Inspect the interior of the connector, clean, rinse and reassemble. Be sure to blow some CO2 though it while you have it apart. Assuming there are no obstructions, you can move on to the beer lines and taps. The thing that I find most puzzling is that you say you can get water to flow, but not beer. That's downright weird and I have no explanation for that. Might be a curse of some kind and if so, you are pretty much screwed no matter what.

Be sure that there is no ice in the beer lines blocking the flow. This can happen with long beer lines that may reach the floor of the freezer where it's the coldest or if they are touching the sides. Just something to check.

 

[mattd2]

-I can rinse water through my picnic tap just fine.
-I'm having the same problem when it's hooked up to a tap tower.

I feel like the problem might be with the disconnects? I feel like they're not depressing the poppets enough to get the liquid out? But then it seems unlikely that I'd have three broken ones.

When you say water through the picnic tap, do you mean just the tap or the whole tap-line-QD?

Agree with Catt that this points to a problem with your QD (or lines but you "should" be able to see a line problem?) as the QD and lines are the only common part that you are having issues with. Do your QD have barbs or MFL threads? If MFL could you be getting teflon tape over the hole in the fitting?
There was a thread on here that a guy had a poorly formed internal part of his QD causing a foaming issue, this could be your case too as If I remember your OP you are just running cleaner through the kegs at the mo.
Do as Catt instructed and check you QD internals.

 

[ISLAGI]

-I can rinse water through my picnic tap just fine.

Need a little clarification here...

Can you put you tap connector up to your sink faucet and it will flow freely when you open the picnic tap?

If so, I would look at replacing the connector on the end of the beer line. There should be a spring-loaded "pin" that presses the poppet down and lets beer flow up the line. If that pin is open enough to just rinse the line without depressing it, then the spring might not be strong enough to press in the poppet.

If I misunderstood, please ignore me and return to your troubleshooting...

 

[Catt22]

Need a little clarification here...

Can you put you tap connector up to your sink faucet and it will flow freely when you open the picnic tap?

If so, I would look at replacing the connector on the end of the beer line. There should be a spring-loaded "pin" that presses the poppet down and lets beer flow up the line. If that pin is open enough to just rinse the line without depressing it, then the spring might not be strong enough to press in the poppet.

If I misunderstood, please ignore me and return to your troubleshooting...

Good point. The pin or plunger inside the QD is what pushes down and opens the poppet in the keg post. If the pin/plunger thingy is missing or damaged, it may not be pushing the poppet down when hooked up. I doubt that it is installed upside down. Not even sure if that is possible. Look inside the part of the connector that fits over the post and you should see the nose of the pin protruding through the hole. You should be able to depress the pin and get tap water to flow through the connector. Hook the black connector to your CO2 tank and see if you can get gas to flow through it. While you have it hooked up that way, put the connector on the beer out keg post and blow some CO2 back into the keg through the long dip tube. Don't do this with beer in the keg as it can stir up sediments and stuff. Do it with water only or on an empty keg.

 

[kanzimonson]

When I say I can run water through, this is just me holding the open hose under a running faucet. I depress the pin inside the QD, the water runs around my finger, through the line, and out the open picnic tap.

Regarding taking the QD apart, that's something I had just been messing with before my last post. Looks like all the parts are there and assembled correctly.

And I reiterate, I have three different black QDs and no matter which I use, I can't get liquid out of the kegs.

The QDs are MPT flare fittings.

I'm gonna mess with the poppets again. Something tells me the problem is with the way the QDs are insufficiently pushing down the poppets.

 

[Catt22]

When I say I can run water through, this is just me holding the open hose under a running faucet. I depress the pin inside the QD, the water runs around my finger, through the line, and out the open picnic tap.

Regarding taking the QD apart, that's something I had just been messing with before my last post. Looks like all the parts are there and assembled correctly.

And I reiterate, I have three different black QDs and no matter which I use, I can't get liquid out of the kegs.

The QDs are MPT flare fittings.

I'm gonna mess with the poppets again. Something tells me the problem is with the way the QDs are insufficiently pushing down the poppets.

In light of this information, it almost certainly is something to do with the poppets. Liquid flows when you push in the poppet manually and there seems to be no restriction in the connector, beer line or tap. The only thing left is the poppet. Here's something you can try. Relieve all of the keg pressure and remove the beer out post. Remove the poppet and replace the post. With liquid in the keg, attach the QD with the beer line and tap attached. Give the keg a shot of gas and liquid should flow normally and if it does, then it's a poppet problem. The poppets may be too tall, too short or maybe somehow the foot part is blocking the dip tube opening. I can't imagine why this would be considering you could get it flowing by manually pushing down the poppet with a screwdriver or whatever. Seems that the connector pin would be doing the same thing. I'd still focus on the poppets as the most likely suspects.

Can you post a close up pic of one of the poppets. Maybe eyeballing one of them will reveal something.

 

[kanzimonson]

Fixed it.

And turns out the title of the post was correct - I just wasn't pulling up enough on the lower, springy part of the QD.

Man I feel dumb, but thanks so much to everyone for taking the time to attempt to solve a real problem.

 

[Catt22]

LoL. Sometimes the obvious things are the hardest to figure out. Good to hear you solved the mystery.

 

[bcstuff]

I don't know about feeling dumb... I learned a ton. Thanks kanzimonson for starting the thread.
**bookmarked for reference**