Feasibility of 240v brewing in my situation

[GuldTuborg]

Hi all! First off, there's a bunch of great information in this forum, so thanks for all the good reading thus far. But while I've scoured this subforum and other recommended places, I still am left with a few questions, mostly to clarify or make sure I'm not missing anything, and I consider a switch to an electric setup from the more traditional propane.

So here's the deal. I want to assess the feasibility of switching to an eBIAB setup, knowing that there are some hurdles, or perhaps even limitations, in my house. I'm also interested to understand some of the limitations to such a switch. So here goes.

1) As far as I can tell, the best possible way to get a 240v setup for me is to make use of my existing dryer line (I have no free breaker space in my box, and really don't want to add a new box if at all possible). My dryer line is a 240v, 30A line with a 3 prong plug (probably meaning 3 wires, but I haven't yet pulled apart the panel to verify). Assuming this is correct, is there a way to easily get a 4 wire system out of this? Can a spa panel be somehow pigtailed onto this line? I want to be able to run both 240v stuff (heating element) and 120v stuff (pump).

2) If I decide to build/buy a 240v controller box, is it possible to run the system (at 1/4 heating power, obviously) using a 120v plug? I've seen talk of creating a 240v -> 120v plug adapter, but I'm not quite sure I understand any limitations to how/where I could use such a thing safely. Can I get the best of both worlds (brew on 120v in the garage for now while I wait on a 240v setup in my basement, and only have to create a plug adapter so I can switch back and forth at will)? I'm leaning towards a DIY panel, but I might buy a premade panel or kit (think Spike Solo).

3) For those of you who have switched from a cooler mash tun, propane fired kettle kind of system to an eBIAB system, is there anything you wish you would have known in advance before making the change?

Edit: I should probably add, my motivation to do this is to improve my QoL while brewing through simplifying the process, reducing noise & exposure to extreme weather, reducing my equipment footprint, etc.

 

[Sammy86]

3) For those of you who have switched from a cooler mash tun, propane fired kettle kind of system to an eBIAB system, is there anything you wish you would have known in advance before making the change?

While I wish I could help you out with your first two questions, I unfortunately can not. I got an electrician to install my 240V receptacle in my garage and purchased an adapter from Amazon for my dryer plug in case the garage is just too cold (which probably won't happen because I don't brew much in the winter to begin with.

As far as your third question there I can help. I purchased a Brewzilla 65L. It is absolutely fantastic to work with for the price point. Heats up fairly quickly, keeps mash temps, vigorous boil and ::knock on wood:: haven't had any problems with the pump.

There is so much information out there (Youtube, this forum, etc.) I had a good idea on what to expect on my first brew day. My first brew day went fantastic except for my not hitting my OG which was most certainly the grain crush (I have since purchased a mill so that will certainly not be an issue anymore.)

The switch was easy and I certainly wish I could have done it sooner! Good luck!

 

[GuldTuborg]

As far as your third question there I can help.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the feedback. I'm glad to hear your switch was a positive one. Brew on!

 

[day_trippr]

For the first question, given the desired usage, a 4th conductor is required. A not uncommon infrastructure issue wrt converting to e-brewing...

Cheers!

 

[RufusBrewer]

Using your dryer you have the logistics of unplugging the dryer and plugging in your brew rig. Typical arrangement is the dryer socket is not in an easy access location for the unplug dryer - plug in brew equipment - brew beer- unplug brew equipment - plug in dryer steps.

This also comes with the house politics of "You can't do laundry, Tuborg is brewing right now."

Strongly recommended you reconsider investigating what it would take to add a new 240 vac breaker. My panel has the ability to open slots by swapping out some breakers 2 in place of 1. (or so I have been told) Buy once, cry once, happy forever.

If your sockets have 3 blades, converting to 4 blades may or may not be a problem. The 4th blade is a neutral connection. Depends on local code and/or what type of romax was pulled to the socket. That determines what your can get away with.

I am assuming you can convert your dryer from 3 blade plug to 4 blade plug.

One solution for you could be going with a controller that requires only 3 blades to begin with. E.g. Blichmann Brewcommander.

Factor in to your choice you will be spending $100-$150 for a new GFCI for inline of your power.

 

[GuldTuborg]

For the first question, given the desired usage, a 4th conductor is required. A not uncommon infrastructure issue wrt converting to e-brewing...

Cheers!

Meaning that the outlet can be retrofitted, or meaning the wire between the panel and outlet must be replaced? I'm unclear on this point.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Using your dryer you have the logistics of unplugging the dryer and plugging in your brew rig. Typical arrangement is the dryer socket is not in an easy access location for the unplug dryer - plug in brew equipment - brew beer- unplug brew equipment - plug in dryer steps.

This also comes with the house politics of "You can't do laundry, Tuborg is brewing right now."

Strongly recommended you reconsider investigating what it would take to add a new 240 vac breaker. My panel has the ability to open slots by swapping out some breakers 2 in place of 1. (or so I have been told) Buy once, cry once, happy forever.

If your sockets have 3 blades, converting to 4 blades may or may not be a problem. The 4th blade is a neutral connection. Depends on local code and/or what type of romax was pulled to the socket. That determines what your can get away with.

I am assuming you can convert your dryer from 3 blade plug to 4 blade plug.

One solution for you could be going with a controller that requires only 3 blades to begin with. E.g. Blichmann Brewcommander.

Factor in to your choice you will be spending $100-$150 for a new GFCI for inline of your power.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I have a small household, so not doing laundry while I'm brewing isn't really an issue. We can plan around that easily.

It sounds like I need to pull apart my panel and see what kind of wiring I have. I'm resigned to either a spa panel or a GFCI breaker, and the costs seem to be within the same ballpark. I had my choice of a 3 or 4 plug cable when purchasing my dryer, so I imagine you're right in that the dryer itself won't be an issue.

I'm wanting to say I considered and ruled out the Brew Commander earlier, though I forget why. I'm not keen on the touchscreen, as it strikes me as a likely point of failure, and I prefer upgradeability. If memory serves, it can only run 240v items plugged into it, so I can't use my existing pump, which adds yet more cost. I might be misremembering, though. I'll have to check.

Damn...this takes some serious planning. I need a beer.

 

[RufusBrewer]

If you build your controller, you can build it with two power inputs.

Input #1 Three blade 240 vac. Powers heating element.
Input #2 Three conductor 120 vac. Powers 120V pumps and accessories.

I assume your laundry room has grounded 120 vac Edison outlets. On brew day, plugging in two sockets is not a big deal.

 

[GuldTuborg]

If you build your controller, you can build it with two power inputs.

Input #1 Three blade 240 vac. Powers heating element.
Input #2 Three conductor 120 vac. Powers 120V pumps and accessories.

I assume your laundry room has grounded 120 vac Edison outlets. On brew day, plugging in two sockets is not a big deal.

I thought the 3 prong (120v) outlet in my laundry room was grounded, too, until I pulled it apart during a minor renovation to discover no ground wire in the box. No GFCI, no label, not even a wire to the box itself (although it was screwed into a stud, so wouldn't have done anything regardless). Just an unwired ground. I upgraded to a GFCI outlet and labeled it as ungrounded, but I don't know enough to know if that is good enough.

Yeah, I live in one of "those houses."

 

[day_trippr]

Assuming access along its length, one could add a fourth conductor - presumably to become the neutral - alongside the existing 3 wire cable. Just have to make sure it's the same or larger gauge conductor as the originals...

Cheers!

 

[brewswithshoes]

I thought the 3 prong (120v) outlet in my laundry room was grounded, too, until I pulled it apart during a minor renovation to discover no ground wire in the box. No GFCI, no label, not even a wire to the box itself (although it was screwed into a stud, so wouldn't have done anything regardless). Just an unwired ground. I upgraded to a GFCI outlet and labeled it as ungrounded, but I don't know enough to know if that is good enough.

Yeah, I live in one of "those houses."

i thought i was in the same situation when setting up my electric brewery using the dryer outlet. It was a 3 wire plug and appeared to be a 3 wire run. I peeled back a little further in the wiring and it was indeed a 4 wire that for some reason they wired up as 3 and clipped the 4th wire back a bit.

Maybe i got lucky in that it was run with 4 wire for my 240v but also thinking it may have been the process in the era/year my house was built (early 90's). Once i found this i setup a SPA panel to run my system (BREW BOSS) and i just move the plug over during brew day. I also got lucky in that my dryer plug location on the wall is just above the height of the dryer itself. Easily reachable.

It may be worth investigating the actual run wire a bit further though as you could be in the same situation and have 4 wire already. Of course triple check all of the power/breakers being off before doing anything !!!!

 

[studmonk3y]

Like brewswithshoes I was pleasantly surprised when I pulled the cover off my 3 prong dryer outlet and discovered there was a 4th (ground) wire already run but not attached to anything. I simply switched out to a 4 prong outlet and added a pigtail to ground the metal outlet box. I built my own control panel and 4 wire 240v definitely simplifies things as you can run your 120v devices (a pump in my case) with one power input to the control box. A 3 wire situation isn't a deal breaker though, like rufusbrewer said, you can just have a separate power input going into your control panel that is dedicated for 120v devices.

I was also lucky in that we had a propane powered dryer already, so the 240v dryer plug is dedicated for brewing use and doesn't need to be shared with the dryer.

Definitely use a GFCI breaker or spa panel.

 

[doug293cz]

Hi all! First off, there's a bunch of great information in this forum, so thanks for all the good reading thus far. But while I've scoured this subforum and other recommended places, I still am left with a few questions, mostly to clarify or make sure I'm not missing anything, and I consider a switch to an electric setup from the more traditional propane.

So here's the deal. I want to assess the feasibility of switching to an eBIAB setup, knowing that there are some hurdles, or perhaps even limitations, in my house. I'm also interested to understand some of the limitations to such a switch. So here goes.

1) As far as I can tell, the best possible way to get a 240v setup for me is to make use of my existing dryer line (I have no free breaker space in my box, and really don't want to add a new box if at all possible). My dryer line is a 240v, 30A line with a 3 prong plug (probably meaning 3 wires, but I haven't yet pulled apart the panel to verify). Assuming this is correct, is there a way to easily get a 4 wire system out of this? Can a spa panel be somehow pigtailed onto this line? I want to be able to run both 240v stuff (heating element) and 120v stuff (pump).

There is a way to get a four wire outlet from a three wire when using a spa panel. HOWEVER IT DOES VIOLATE ELECTRICAL CODES, so it is not recommended. Better to have two power input cables, one for 240V and one for 120V, as mentioned previously.

You can pull the cover off of the 240V dryer outlet to see if it is a three wire or four wire feed (also previously mentioned.)

2) If I decide to build/buy a 240v controller box, is it possible to run the system (at 1/4 heating power, obviously) using a 120v plug? I've seen talk of creating a 240v -> 120v plug adapter, but I'm not quite sure I understand any limitations to how/where I could use such a thing safely. Can I get the best of both worlds (brew on 120v in the garage for now while I wait on a 240v setup in my basement, and only have to create a plug adapter so I can switch back and forth at will)? I'm leaning towards a DIY panel, but I might buy a premade panel or kit (think Spike Solo).

Yes, you can build a control panel that works from either a 240V or 120V outlet. I have examples of this kind of design if you are interested. Not sure if any commercially available control panels are designed to allow this.

3) For those of you who have switched from a cooler mash tun, propane fired kettle kind of system to an eBIAB system, is there anything you wish you would have known in advance before making the change?

Edit: I should probably add, my motivation to do this is to improve my QoL while brewing through simplifying the process, reducing noise & exposure to extreme weather, reducing my equipment footprint, etc.

Brew on

 

[jseyfert3]

Can you change the wiring to your dryer easily? You could upgrade the wiring to a 4-wire setup, put in a 4-pin outlet, and change the dryer from 3 to 4 pin cord. Now you have a proper 4-pin outlet and you can easily unplug the dryer for your brewing control. You'd upgrade the breaker to a GFCI breaker at the same time.

I thought the 3 prong (120v) outlet in my laundry room was grounded, too, until I pulled it apart during a minor renovation to discover no ground wire in the box. No GFCI, no label, not even a wire to the box itself (although it was screwed into a stud, so wouldn't have done anything regardless). Just an unwired ground. I upgraded to a GFCI outlet and labeled it as ungrounded, but I don't know enough to know if that is good enough.

The NEC does allow the use of a GFCI outlet where the existing wiring is ungrounded, assuming the ungrounded wiring was otherwise up to code at time of install. This outlet must be labeled "no equipment ground", which is why most GFCI outlets, at least the ones I've purchased, have the aforementioned stickers in the box. Note local code may differ, and if easy to do it's best to just get a ground wire run to that outlet in addition to the GFCI. Note that laundry room 120 volt outlets are required by current code to be GFCI (in addition to being grounded), as GFCI is required in any wet area for 120 volt outlets. This includes laundry/utility rooms, basements, kitchens, bathrooms, garages, and outdoor outlets.

Strongly recommended you reconsider investigating what it would take to add a new 240 vac breaker. My panel has the ability to open slots by swapping out some breakers 2 in place of 1. (or so I have been told) Buy once, cry once, happy forever.

This is an option, depending on the panel. A tandem breaker has two breakers for two 120 volt circuits in the space of a single breaker. The panel must be rated for these breakers, otherwise while they fit they will not be code compliant. When I bought my house I had 6 tandem breakers in a (full) 100 amp, 24 slot breaker panel. When I had an electrician come quote adding circuits for a pool, he said my panel was not rated for tandem breakers, which means the previous owner added circuits and must not have pulled permits or the inspector should have caught that.

My new 200 amp, 40 slot panel I upgraded too is rated for tandem breakers, so I not only have tons of free slots now but can add even more circuits with tandem breakers if the slots fill up, and still be code compliant. Of course that was somewhere north of $2000 to upgrade the panel and service (and I got lucky the meter and meter feed were already rated for 200 amps)...but now that I'm considering an electric setup in my unfinished basement where the panel resides, installing any size 120 or 240 volt outlet in my basement will be a breeze and insanely cheap. Again for emphasis:

Buy once, cry once, happy forever.

 

[Brumateur]

2) If I decide to build/buy a 240v controller box, is it possible to run the system (at 1/4 heating power, obviously) using a 120v plug? I've seen talk of creating a 240v -> 120v plug adapter, but I'm not quite sure I understand any limitations to how/where I could use such a thing safely. Can I get the best of both worlds (brew on 120v in the garage for now while I wait on a 240v setup in my basement, and only have to create a plug adapter so I can switch back and forth at will)? I'm leaning towards a DIY panel, but I might buy a premade panel or kit (think Spike Solo).

Yes, it's possible to design your 240v controller box such a way that you can use with 120V only by simple plug adapter. For safety in case of 120V you can install wall outlet with GFCI like this one

 

[GuldTuborg]

Hello all. Thank you for the replies. I haven't disappeared or forgotten about this, but life did throw me a curveball that kept me busy for a while, so I'm just now finding some time to delve into these comments. First off, thank you all for your thoughts and sharing your experiences.

There is a way to get a four wire outlet from a three wire when using a spa panel. HOWEVER IT DOES VIOLATE ELECTRICAL CODES, so it is not recommended. Better to have two power input cables, one for 240V and one for 120V, as mentioned previously.

You can pull the cover off of the 240V dryer outlet to see if it is a three wire or four wire feed (also previously mentioned.)

It seems like doing this is my next step, and then I'll need to plan once I gett his figured out.

Yes, you can build a control panel that works from either a 240V or 120V outlet. I have examples of this kind of design if you are interested. Not sure if any commercially available control panels are designed to allow this.

I definitely may be. Let me look into my dryer wire situation first, and I'll let you know. Thank you for the offer.

This is an option, depending on the panel. A tandem breaker has two breakers for two 120 volt circuits in the space of a single breaker. The panel must be rated for these breakers, otherwise while they fit they will not be code compliant. When I bought my house I had 6 tandem breakers in a (full) 100 amp, 24 slot breaker panel. When I had an electrician come quote adding circuits for a pool, he said my panel was not rated for tandem breakers, which means the previous owner added circuits and must not have pulled permits or the inspector should have caught that.

Good to know. I wouldn't have known to look for this, even if I went the DIY approach to installing a GFCI breaker. I'm comfortable working around electricity and wiring, but neither well practiced nor knowledgeable about codes in my area. My hope is I don't have to fool with pulling a new wire (it's about a 30-40 foot run), but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Yes, it's possible to design your 240v controller box such a way that you can use with 120V only by simple plug adapter. For safety in case of 120V you can install wall outlet with GFCI like this one
View attachment 706087

Yeah, that's what I used in my basement when I found the old, ungrounded 3-prong outlet. I marked it properly, as I'm not as irresponsible as the previous owner. I might be able to set one out in the garage, too, to brew outside during nice weather.