FAQ: Aluminum Pots for Boil Kettles?

[pwortiz]

Thanks, borny! I ended up with one that looks identical to yours - is 4mm thick. I went with a Winco one that has a thicker bottom and is 32 qt. Oxidized last night and it looks nice now - ready for some brewing anyway. I need to find a way to insulate the pot now though as it boils awesome with the lid on...but then as soon as i take it off it goes back to 211.

Since I got the dang thing just so I could start doing full boils, that's not going to cut it so I need to figure out which option or options make the most sense:
1: Get a new gas range with a high powered burner (my wife's not likin' that as counter-intuitive as that sounds)
2: Get an outdoor burner and start doing outdoor full boils - I could do this year round I guess but would prefer not to in winters here in MI
3: Understand the right way to insulate the pot and get those supplies. My question here is whether it will make that much of a difference?

Anyone else had this problem?

 

[borny]

I have the same pot, winco 60 quart... I do have a similar problem, kind of. I have a heating element and it appears to take about 10% more power to maintain the same boil I had in a keg... I will eventually get the aluminum (?) insulation others use one the board. If I were you, I would look for a cheap burner or just leave the lid on halfway during the boil....

 

[Cabby58]

Would it be okay to get the oxide layer by filling with water and Oxyclean? It looks like the same dark layer and would not require a boil. The reason I ask is that it took about 3 hours to get a boil in my 15 gallon aluminum pot when it was full.

 

[Holzster]

This thread is a good read - thanks all

 

[milldoggy]

Would it be okay to get the oxide layer by filling with water and Oxyclean? It looks like the same dark layer and would not require a boil. The reason I ask is that it took about 3 hours to get a boil in my 15 gallon aluminum pot when it was full.

I heard vinager and water will do it. I think oxyclean is a o2 based cleaner, meaning it strips o2 for cleaning. Don't think that is what you want to ue.

 

[usshanebond12]

Yea vinegar with a cup of water works great. Nice and very useful thread.

 

[BuddyWeiser]

After reading this thread, I decided to do an experiment! I got a brand new 40 qt aluminum pot that I've just finished oxidizing. While oxidizing the inside, I took the posts on this thread and some info I read elsewhere about aluminum and oxidizing for food preperation into account.
No hypothesis, I just wanted to see if it gets any noticibly darker or lighter from boiling with water for longer than 1 hour or from boiling wort vs water. Here are the results.

The very top layer has never touched boiling water and looks the same as when I pulled off the plastic wrapping. The second layer down (in between the top two arrows) was boiled in tap water for 1 hour. The third layer down (in between the 2nd and 3rd arrows) was boiled in a weak wort made of table sugar and NB hops for 1 hour (in addition to the first boil). The very bottom layer (underneath the lowest arrow) was boiled in tap water for 1 more hour.
IMO, if you read this thread and still feel paranoid about using aluminum, then be warned that "paranoia will destroy ya!" not aluminum or alzeheimers. Live in fear and you're wasting time that could be spent feeling good. Be strong and confident, and even if alzeheimers gets ya (like it did my grandpa), you'll leave behind a legacy to be proud of.
Thanks all for the info!

 

[burntgraphite]

While pure Al and Al-based compounds do affect brain chemistry (Audus) and grey matter peroxidation (Fraga, Oteiza, and et al), there is no direct correlation between brain lipid peroxidation, increased permeability of the blood brain barrier and all of the other interesting things that aluminum does to your brain, and encephalopathy (brain disease). That being said, Al2O3 (Aluminum oxide) is a very hard substance. It is used for high grit sandpaper, for sanding metal. As a sailor, I have had to attempt to polish it or sand it off of aluminum hulls, and that is not fun, let me tell ya. If you boil vinegar in your kettle you are creating aluminum acetate which is a completely different subject.

Not being a neurologist but merely an overeducated military member, I see it this way: Aluminum is harmful, yes. Studies show this. The thing that really saves your bacon is that Al is not soluble in water, so it cannot poison you in this way. There you go; some simple research leaves you with interesting data, provided you are willing to look up all of the definitions of the various neuroscience terms in the abstracts.

To break it all down? You're probably fine using Al pots and pans. And I'll keep using my aluminum sandwiched SS boil kettle. Which is exactly what everyone else said. Have fun, make some good brews.


Works Cited:
Audus, Kenneth. "ScienceDirect.com." Aluminum effects on brain microvessel endothelial cell monolayer permeability. University of Kansas, 21 Jan 1988. Web. 17 Jun 2012. <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517388902955>.
Fraga, , Oteiza, and et al. "Uk Pubmed Central." Effects of aluminum on brain lipid peroxidation. University of California Berkley, 1990. Web. 17 Jun 2012. <http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/2330606>.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Would I be safe using C-Brite sanitizer on my aluminum pot?

 

[Golddiggie]

Would I be safe using C-Brite sanitizer on my aluminum pot?

If it's your boil pot you have zero need to sanitize. The boiling wort will take care of that for you.

I wouldn't use anything chlorine based on either a stainless or aluminum kettle/pot.

 

[ryndam]

I've been working on my All-grain equipment lately and just picked up a 32 qt aluminum pot (Thermalloy) from my local restaurant supply store. It was a bit dirty from the warehouse so I washed it with some dish soap in my sink not realizing (or at least not thinking about the fact) that my dish soap actually includes oxy (Palmolive Oxy Plus). I washed it for a few minutes to get the layer of dust off then rinsed off the soap and loaded it up with water for a good boil straddling two burners on my electric stove. After 2 hours it had still not come to a rolling boil ( checked a few times with a digital thermometer and it seemed to plateau at 99 C so I gave up and noticed when I was dumping the water that the surface of my range had acquired quite a bit of damage. The aluminum plate below my stovetop coil had pretty much disintegrated and the metal insert below that was heavily damaged (see images). The pot seems to be fine aside from the desired darkening of the inside but there was a fair bit of grey residue that came off the bottom and the stove coil.

Is this a result of the washing with oxy + boiling or is there some other reason for why this occurred?

 

[GNBrews]

That is definitely *not* normal, and there's no way that the dish soap caused it even with the oxy (percarbonate). If the pot had a pinhole leak and was keeping the element and drip pan wet, you may have got some leakage current from the element, causing corrosion. That's a very crazy amount of rust though, assuming it was new'ish looking and shiny when you started. Wow. Definitely not caused by the pot though.

Your second picture looks like baked-on food spatter from another session. It should come off with a non-scratch scrub pad and a bit of elbow grease.

Edit: Alternatively, the high heat of having the burner on full-blast may have removed the layer of chrome from the drip pan, and exposed the steel underneath. The steel will rust fairly readily with exposure to moisture.

 

[ryndam]

Yeah, the drip pan was fine before I started. There was no obvious dirt on the stove top when I started but there may have been residual oil specks that burned or something of that nature. I was able to clean most of it off with a baking soda paste left to dry anyway.

I ended up talking to an engineer friend of mine last night on the issue and his thought was that the extra oxygen+heat on the bottom of the pot combined with the different metal of the burner was enough to convert the entire system into a battery/induce galvanic corrosion.

Grabbed a picture of the aluminum foil pan that disintegrated for good measure.

 

[kkramer56]

A very thought provoking post, thank you for writing it.

My thought on the subject is, there aren't a lot of studies on this subject of aluminum cookware however why chance it.

I did read that test studies on mice lead to, among other things "localized hair loss" and other disorders that lead them to summarize; "short term feeding of aluminum at levels within an order of magnitude of estimated human intake can influence neurobehavioral function as indexed by motor activity."

This was from the NBCI web site.

While it was believed that leaching from cookware was a minor contributor, there are other sources such as drinking water, medicines, pharmaceuticals (such as antacids and antiperspirants) that are the biggest contributors to aluminum exposures.

Why add to it with your cookware, however slight.

I'll use SS.

 

[pellis007]

Just to stir up an old thread...I have a 20 quart aluminum pot which I purchased new, but never oxidized before I brewed with it. I've done 3 batches in it so far. My question is should I go ahead and boil some water in it to build an oxidized layer after I've already used it, or is that not necessary now?

 

[Golddiggie]

Just to stir up an old thread...I have a 20 quart aluminum pot which I purchased new, but never oxidized before I brewed with it. I've done 3 batches in it so far. My question is should I go ahead and boil some water in it to build an oxidized layer after I've already used it, or is that not necessary now?

Provided you didn't scrub the hell out of the pot, removing any oxide layer formed, you should be fine.

Normally, you boil the absolute maximum you can in the pot, to get the layer to form above what your expect to ever put in there.

Also, as you brew, the layer will thicken (as it can or if allowed to). Simply clean gently (don't scrub the hell out of it unless you absolutely have to) and let it keep forming. Similar to what happens with cast iron pans/skillets.

 

[pellis007]

Thanks for your response Golddiggie, I have cleaned only with a soft sponge and a mild soap so far. No scrubbing. I have only done partial boils in this pot so far so probably only about 2.5 gals or about 1/2 of the pot. I'm moving to all grain for my next batch and plan to use this pot for sparge water since I now have a 44 quart SS for brewing. Would it be advantageous to do a 30 min full topped off boil to make sure the whole pot is oxidized? I guess I'm just looking for an excuse to try out my new Bayou burner...lol.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for your response Golddiggie, I have cleaned only with a soft sponge and a mild soap so far. No scrubbing. I have only done partial boils in this pot so far so probably only about 2.5 gals or about 1/2 of the pot. I'm moving to all grain for my next batch and plan to use this pot for sparge water since I now have a 44 quart SS for brewing. Would it be advantageous to do a 30 min full topped off boil to make sure the whole pot is oxidized? I guess I'm just looking for an excuse to try out my new Bayou burner...lol.

Yeah, sure, yeah, that will be a *wink* good idea *wink*... lol It won't do any harm, that's for certain.

 

[McCuckerson]

Either way its fine. Brew on a new al pot and you get the amount of al that's in an antacid. Not to mention that aluminum cannot pass thru the brain-blood barrier but I digress .....

 

[pellis007]

Well, I did a 4.5 gal boil for 45 mins yesterday just to ease my mind. Happy to report my burner kicks butt and my pot is now oxidized. I celebrated by sampling a bottle my first 5 gal batch. Not a bad day!

 

[jflongo]

I was shocked today, pulled out my old turkey frying stuff, since I never do that anymore. Sprayed out the 30 quart aluminum pot I used to use, filled it 2/3 full with hot water, threw it on the singe burner I used to use, and was shocked, i had about 20 quarts of water boiling in 15 minutes.

 

[Yellowirenut]

For those who live in Indiana and Michigan http://www.atlasrestaurantsupply.com/ is a good place to go. I buy all my regular cooking pot n pans from them. good prices for an item designed for the daily abuse of a restaurant.
The different styles and sizes of pots/kettles you can order on site is immense.

Find out if you have a local restaurant supply store in your area and take a look.
they do not advertise and usually hidden away in a cheep rent building. they are selling a product not an image.

Edit - i just realized wile looking at there vender list that perlick is one of them.

 

[BrewingRob]

Head's up to anyone using an Aluminum pot:

So, I got an amazing deal -- a turkey fryer at a garage sale for $10. Didn't they know what this can be used for?!

I read about baking the pot. Check. I read about the stainless/aluminum pros and cons. Check. I did not catch the "Don't use PBW" clause. The pot is now pitted and nasty.

So, warning to newbies out there: When the FAQ says do not use caustic cleaners, it's serious. NO PBW.

For what it's worth, I'm going to keep using it. The only downside is that my 4.5 gallon stainless pot is wide enough to get to a rolling boil on my gas kitchen stove. The turkey fryer is too tall. It needs a better burner. So, it's more of a fair-weather friend.

 

[wilserbrewer]

No big deal, I would scour the heck out of it, with a scrub pad or perhaps with medium then fine sandpaper. Then oxidize it again. Aluminum is soft and can be refinished ala ghetto style.

 

[jbakajust1]

I have a related question, 2 actually. If I have used oxy based cleaners on aluminum and have removed some of the oxide, is there a way to restore it? Also, if I inherit an Aluminum pot that has been used, is there a way to ensure that it has a proper oxide barrier in place? I bought aluminum cam locks and have used oxyclean on them about 4 - 5 times now. I also may be getting a couple used (party supply store rentals) 15 gallon pots.

Thanks.

 

[Heavyfoot]

Picked up a new 48L aluminum pot yesterday.

I boiled about 26L in it to build up the oxide layer.

As seen in the picture, it's quite dark up to where the water line was.

As long as I'm never boiling more than around 23L of wort, should I be worried about the upper half of the pot not having the oxidation layer?

 

[wilserbrewer]

No, I would say you are fine regardless of your intended boil volume, aluminum oxidizes very easily and a preboil is merely a precaution...RDWHAHB cheers

 

[Majic]

is there any evidence of metal interaction that would prevent me from using an aluminum pot with a stainless bulkhead ?

thanks- Lou

 

[SpikeBrewing]

You're on the edge for recommended galvanic corrosion limits. Stainless is a .5V and aluminum is between .75-.95V. For normal environments they recommend less than a .25V difference. Wouldn't be the worst idea to disassemble after uses.

Source: http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

 

[wilserbrewer]

is there any evidence of metal interaction that would prevent me from using an aluminum pot with a stainless bulkhead ?

thanks- Lou

I've been using the same 32QT aluminum pot for years. Started out life as my boil kettle, then I put a 4,500w element in it, and it became my electric boil kettle. These days it's my electric HLT. It's still trucking along. Stainless fittings, and no signs of corrosion yet.

The entire pot acts as a sacrificial anode if you use it with an electric element. In theory, the entire pot will eventually wear out. It could be decades before that happens, and if it ever does, it was only a $22 pot.

If you are using propane, my setup is a worst-case scenario by comparison, and I've had zero issues. Carry on =)

You are likely very fine and this is not a problem at all for your intended infrequent use as a homebrewer. This type of corrosion is more pertinent to structural applications, plumbing of pressure vessels, or marine environments. I would be more concerned of a lightning strike during a brew session than the stainless fitting on your aluminum pot...cheers!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/aluminum-pot-stainless-fittings-372245/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_stainless_steel_react_when_in_cotact_with_aluminum