FAQ: Aluminum Pots for Boil Kettles?

[bradsul]

While I appreciate you looking up that information, this thread is not a debate about any alleged links between aluminum and alzeimers. As such any discussion along those lines will be removed to the debate forum.

 

[Hillbilly_Bill]

While I appreciate you looking up that information, this thread is not a debate about any alleged links between aluminum and alzeimers. As such any discussion along those lines will be removed to the debate forum.

Whatever...
Like I said, I read the entire thread before I posted and there were multiple posts about the ingestion of aluminum. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Bill

 

[bradsul]

No worries, it's not about offending people, it's just one of those topics that seems to get people going. We have the debate forum for that and try to keep it out of the technical forums as much as possible.

 

[mazultav]

I brewed a 5.5 gal batch, in my new 10 gal pot without building an oxide layer.

1. Is the beer safe? I'd think yes this one time

2. The inside looks a bit dull, not really grey. Did the wort build an oxide layer or does it need to be pure water.

3. How do you guys get a boil in a pot filled to the brim without make a complete mess?

 

[GNBrews]

Aluminum is such a reactive metal that it *always* has an oxide coating. Your beer will be fine.

Never fill a pot of wort to the brim. You need at least a few inches for when you get a rolling boil. Products like Fermcap-S will help prevent boilovers with extremely full pots.

 

[northernlad]

I'd like to say that the link between aluminum and alzheimers has NOT been debunked. The scientific community simply has not been able to find any definitive proof of a link (yet). This is not the same as disproving. This is still being researched, therefore, there are still scientists who believe a link may exist. In science, proof is proof, but a lack of proof is not proof. I'm not trying to stir up debate on the subject. Noone on this board is probably qualified to give an opinion on the matter. But to say its been debunked is false information..... Again.... just to be clear..... In science, proof is proof, but a lack of proof is not proof.


Edit: From Web MD's article on the subject: On the whole, scientists can say only that it is still uncertain whether exposure to aluminum plays a role in Alzheimer's disease.

I would respectfully ask the mods to change the verbage of the sticky first post to read "has not been proven" instead of "has been debunked". Because that is the correct, factual, and responsible information. Even the links posted state clearly that there has been no definitive proof either way.

By your rationale it would have to be proven to be disproven. Since it has not been proven it needs not be disproven, hence the debunked. If Aluminum gave people Alzheimers, everyone in the country would have it based on the frequency with which this country eats out and the fact that most of the cookware used in restaurants is Lincoln Wearever aluminum.

Wort contains nothing that is particularly reactive with aluminum. Salt and acid are the culprits. We are cooking what basically amounts to simple syrup.

 

[bsteab0yz]

Just got an Al brewpot, I understand the first 1 hour boil or oven prep to get the oxide layer... but what about after that? Should you just clean it with some water and a little detergent? Or not clean it with any type of cleaning solution? I see a lot of people on here talk about "taking care of the Al pot" but what exactly does this mean??

 

[mikeysab]

clean it with water and a soft cloth. Don't scrub it with a brillo pad ir any scouring pad. As long as you don't let anything get dry and crust on it, it's easy to keep clean. A soft diah towel and some hot watee is enough to clean it thoroughly

 

[h2odenman]

Not sure what the big deal is here. Google Aluminum Cookwear Care and read. The difference in color after the boiling for an hour is likely due to minerals or lack thereof in your water. Aluminum naturally builds an oxide layer without all the boiling. Just brew and enjoy.

Only on a homebrew forum can people get worked up into a rich lather about this. You have all eaten something acidic, basic, and otherwise prepared in a commercial kitchen and I have never heard of anyone complaining their fill in the blank tastes like metal.

 

[kjjohns5]

Found this 10 gallon aluminum stock pot on samsclub.com and it appears to be the cheapest I can find. The first reviewer says that they bought it for brewing and it works great. Doesn't come with a lid (costs like $6 extra), which I would use during the cool down, but it doesn't seem too necessary. Perhaps even my lid for my 20 qt stainless steel pot will fit. Who knows.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=328611

Issue: I'm not a sams club member, lol. Going to ask around people I know to see if they are.

 

[kjjohns5]

Oh, did find this one too: http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/update-international/apt-40/p4857.aspx

Reviews are all homebrewers that love the product.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Copper oxide is green.

Copper oxide is NOT green.

Initially, bare Cu metal atoms react with air to form the pink oxide, cuprite, Cu2O, which has Cu+1 cations. This gradually oxidizes further to the black oxide, tenorite, CuO, with Cu+2 ions. The black sulfide CuS also sometimes forms. In the presence of moisture, the blackish layer slowly reacts with sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide from the air to eventually form the patina, which is a mixture of 3 minerals:

brochantite, a green, hydrated copper sulfate, Cu4SO4(OH)6
malachite, the green, hydrated copper carbonate Cu2CO3(OH)3
azurite, the blue, hydrated copper carbonate Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2

 

[mezman]

What wall thickness (or duty level) should I be looking for in a 40-60qt pot?

I'm imagining that heavy gauge, is going to be better than standard but maybe it makes no difference?

 

[hopfool]

So if I want to to brew using grain and have need of straight hot water a properly seasoned aluminum pot will get hot faster with no issues (assuming neutral pH and minimal mineral content in the water used). If I have concerns about aluminum's reactivity, health questions or ease of cleaning, then pick the S/S for my wort. Sound about right?

Just to further elaborate on the differences between the two metals here's a link to MSDS's for each.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Aluminum-9922844
http://www.samuel.com/company/pdfs/StainlessSteel.pdf

The S/S has fewer issues unless you're the guy welding it.

I've been poisoned by exposure to industrial chemicals and metals so I am very sensitive to the cautions, but it seems that a reasonable approach has already been prescribed here; if you have a family predisposition or sensitivity outside the norm, exercise due diligence and avoid using deodorant or eating Rolaids.

Most folks would stagger under the weight of scary crap that they are exposed to every day without realizing it. Food born pathogens at restaurants and grocers, VOC,s and heavy metals in their drinking water, heavy metals and chemicals in their vegetable gardens and radon gas in the basement. To be honest I'm more worried about BT corn in cattle feed and high fructose corn syrup, since I eat it every day.

I've got all kinds of neurological, cognitive and physical issues from my exposures, including Alzheimer-like memory symptoms. I represent a hopefully small contingent of the populace but deem it prudent to use the quicker heating aluminum only where it's just in contact with water. You say tomato, I say I'll have another beer.

For all of the worry and discourse the truth is that we're all much more likely to die from hypertension as a result of working too hard to pay taxes and worrying about whatever bogeyman our rulers have concocted to stay in power. I believe that is why the Founding Fathers responded to the threat by getting together to figure out how to rid themselves of that stress. And just where did they meet to discuss these weighty matters? Well at the tavern of course, where the beer was.

 

[mezman]

So I'm about to pull the trigger on a 60 qt Al pot. Some pots advertise 3004 Al alloy. Most don't and the 3004 alloy pots are pricier. I looked up what 3004 is and it seems to be just related to being higher in manganese. Does that make it sturdier? Safer? Prettier? Magic?

Thanks!

 

[northernlad]

3004 is good stuff. It contains a higher percentage of alloy elves.
If the price is right for you buy it, its way better than Walmart garbage.

 

[mezman]

So if a known alloy like 3004 or 3003 is better than an unknown Al alloy, is 4mm thick 3003 better than 6mm thick unknown alloy?

I'm waffling between these two pots:

60 Qt 3003 Al pot for $57 or 60 Qt unknown Al alloy 6mm thick pot for $62.

Thoughts?

 

[Hoppus_Poppatopolis]

The unknown is by Update International. You could try going to www.update-international.com, contact them and see if they can tell you.
If I were buying one and they couldn't tell me, I'd go for the thinner, known one.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I don't see any practical difference in the alloy, but the thickness will make a big difference in durability. I'd go for the thicker one.

 

[mezman]

The unknown is by Update International. You could try going to www.update-international.com, contact them and see if they can tell you.
If I were buying one and they couldn't tell me, I'd go for the thinner, known one.

Thanks for the advice. I sent off an email asking what kind of Al it is, specifically if it's an 11xx or 30xx series alloy.

I don't see any practical difference in the alloy, but the thickness will make a big difference in durability. I'd go for the thicker one.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, but the 30xx series Al alloys are supposed to be tougher and more resistant to dents and dings. I looked up the metallurgical data on the two alloys and while the 3003 alloy has a greater tensile and yield strength by about 15% than 1100 Al, the thermal conductivity of 1100 is 25% greater than 3003 in W/m-K, so that's interesting.

Have people had problems scorching their beer with cheaper/thinner Al pots?

 

[Synovia]

Have people had problems scorching their beer with cheaper/thinner Al pots?

My aluminum pot is about as cheap and thin as they get, and I've never had a problem (with AG). I have scorched some settled LME, but I've done that in stainless too.

 

[northernlad]

Update pots are 3003. 4mm for pots like APT-60, 6mm for APT-60HD

 

[mezman]

Update pots are 3003. 4mm for pots like APT-60, 6mm for APT-60HD

Hmm...I don't think that's true.

I just got a reply back from Update about what alloy they use to make their pots (nice and fast too). Susan Lin says it's 1100 series aluminum.

Matthew,

Our stock pots are made of 1100 series aluminum.


Best regards,

Susan Lin
Purchasing Manager
Update International
Tel: (323)585-0616 ext.122
Fax: (323)585-0939
Web: www.update-international.com

So then the next question is, when it comes to our purposes, does it really matter if a pot's 1100 or 3003 or 3004? Especially when a 60 Qt 3003 pot can be had for only $57? If it dents up, I'll get a new one. I'm more worried about scorching the beer or maybe 1100 aluminum leeches more Al into the beer than a harder alloy would.

Iono, I'm sure I'm making a bigger deal of this than it deserves. But I guess that's what hobbies are about.

 

[northernlad]

Hmm...I don't think that's true.

I just got a reply back from Update about what alloy they use to make their pots (nice and fast too). Susan Lin says it's 1100 series aluminum.




So then the next question is, when it comes to our purposes, does it really matter if a pot's 1100 or 3003 or 3004? Especially when a 60 Qt 3003 pot can be had for only $57? If it dents up, I'll get a new one. I'm more worried about scorching the beer or maybe 1100 aluminum leeches more Al into the beer than a harder alloy would.

Iono, I'm sure I'm making a bigger deal of this than it deserves. But I guess that's what hobbies are about.

That is unfortunate. I will call Andrew from Update in the morning and see what he has to say.
Meanwhile: from http://www.aviationmetals.net/aluminum_sheet.php

1100
Low strength aluminum alloy has excellent corrosion resistance and satisfactory anodizing and conversion coating finishing characteristics. It is unmatched by any other commercial aluminum alloy in workability. Readily to welding, brazing, and soldering. Machinability is poor and tends to be "gummy". Non-heat treatable. Typical applications include chemical storage, processing equipment, kitchen utensils, and general sheet metal work.

3003
Approx. 20% higher strength than the 1100 series, but retaining an excellent workability rating. May show some slight discoloration when anodized, but reacts well to mechanical and organic finishings. 3003 is easily welded and brazed, but solder is limited to the torch method. Like 1100, tends to be "gummy" when machined. Non-heat treatable. Typical applications include food and chemical equipment, appliance components, truck and trailer roofing, heat exchangers, and lawn furniture components.

While I was apparently incorrect about Update, the Crestware brand uses 3003 and Lincoln uses 3004.

 

[mezman]

Yeah, that's kinda what my research showed as well, northernlad. I think that I might go with the 60 Qt Winco 3003 Al pot. At only $57, it's not a huge investment if it turns out to not be what I need. And if it does, well all the better!

 

[northernlad]

Spoke to Update this morning. It is indeed 1100.

 

[cjever19]

So this $57 pot is now $67. Anyone know of any other deals?

So if a known alloy like 3004 or 3003 is better than an unknown Al alloy, is 4mm thick 3003 better than 6mm thick unknown alloy?

I'm waffling between these two pots:

60 Qt 3003 Al pot for $57 or 60 Qt unknown Al alloy 6mm thick pot for $62.

Thoughts?

 

[northernlad]

The deal is at some point they don't get any cheaper.

 

[mezman]

So this $57 pot is now $67. Anyone know of any other deals?

If $67 is too steep, you can watch it, maybe the price on it fluctuates. Or look for other stores selling them.

I've been quite pleased with the pot. No complaints or problems yet though I've only made three brews since I got it in May. I'd pay $67 for this pot again if I needed a second for some reason. I think it's worth it.

 

[Jhenjum]

So this $57 pot is now $67. Anyone know of any other deals?

Sams Club - $43.88