Fantastic Stout, until bottled.

[vegas20s]

i tasted a bottle every other week for 6 months or longer. then dumped. i wanted to cry

The taste in my batch is bitter but I can still drink it. What I really want is the taste from before I bottled this batch.

 

[Rockape66]

Mini mash is exactly the same as an all grain mash, except for the volume and grain bill. Water chemistry is exactly the same for mini mash, but i don't think this is your problem. Let it ride.

 

[1ratdog]

even if you dump it or drink it. save 1 bottle and let it sit at least 6 months and see. then you'll know if it was yuck or just needed time

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I'm wondering if maybe your warm ferment temps and using two pack of Notty is bringing out something funky. One pack of Notty is more than enough in a 5g batch. That stuff is pretty aggresive, so I bet it went crazy with all of that extra yeast and high temps. Just a thought, it may not mean anything.

 

[1ratdog]

i thought you could not pitch to much yeast. within a reasonable amount. 2 packs sound resonable. and it tasted good when fermentation was complete.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

i thought you could not pitch to much yeast. within a reasonable amount. 2 packs sound resonable. and it tasted good when fermentation was complete.

You can overpitch, It's less critical than underpitching. You want some growth phase when you pitch, and overpitching doesn't allow that.

2 packs may be good on a really big beer, but in most cases 1 pack is fine(Considering that it is an 11g pack), so why waste the second pack if you don't have to?

 

[vegas20s]

I'm wondering if maybe your warm ferment temps and using two pack of Notty is bringing out something funky. One pack of Notty is more than enough in a 5g batch. That stuff is pretty aggresive, so I bet it went crazy with all of that extra yeast and high temps. Just a thought, it may not mean anything.

This was a 7 gallon batch. I used Mr. malty to calculate pitch rates. It said I needed 1 1/2 packs.

As far as the taste goes.....

I tasted a bottle last night, 4 weeks in bottles, and quite a bit of the bitterness has gone away. I can still taste it, but this gives me much hope!

 

[vegas20s]

It's been in bottles a few months now.

Seems to have mellowed out a lot.

There is still some bitterness. I think most of the bitterness was from my mini mash method. I was squeezing the grain bag. I have the same taste in the next batch I brewed but not to the same extent. That batch didn't have roasted barley it just had chocolate malt. It is also quite a bit more hoppy. For the follow up batch a made a cardboard conditioning chamber I put the whole batch in and put cookie sheets on the top of the cases. I put frozen two liter bottles on top of the sheets. This has help the conditioning process I think because after 3 weeks the follow up batch seems to be tasting quite good.

 

[charlesmartin]

i would give it at least another month in the bottle. conditioning is key. i had others taste my first stout at 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 6 weeks. the most recent review has been the best...so i'm looking for two months to be the key on mine. give it some patience. put it in a box in the back corner of a room you barely visit and 'find' it in a few weeks. you might be surprised. if it doesn't taste like band-aids or cardboard, you are ok.

my second recommendation is starsan...starsan EVERYTHING. don't fear the foam. you can pour beer into starsan and it will be ok. once the foam is diluted into beer, the yeast have a party with that stuff. it kills bacteria on contact. that's why sodas are loaded with it (phosphoric acid). the sanitation of your bottles may be off, but like i said earlier, give it time before you write off the entire batch. patience is key with homebrew...a difficult lesson to learn but very profitable when you learn to appreciate the value of time.

good luck.

 

[charlesmartin]

It's been in bottles a few months now.

Seems to have mellowed out a lot.

There is still some bitterness. I think most of the bitterness was from my mini mash method. I was squeezing the grain bag. I have the same taste in the next batch I brewed but not to the same extent. That batch didn't have roasted barley it just had chocolate malt. It is also quite a bit more hoppy. For the follow up batch a made a cardboard conditioning chamber I put the whole batch in and put cookie sheets on the top of the cases. I put frozen two liter bottles on top of the sheets. This has help the conditioning process I think because after 3 weeks the follow up batch seems to be tasting quite good.

flush the bag with hot water, but squeezing the bag can cause unpleasant off flavors. i learned this lesson the 'hard way'. i thought i was getting the most bang for my buck out of my grains, but i was releasing compounds that should not end up in my brew. flush don't squeeze.

 

[badhabit]

As the beer conditions/carbs up it will change flavor as a part of the carb process. Give it time and I will bet that you end up with not only a better flavor but more carb.

 

[Revvy]

flush the bag with hot water, but squeezing the bag can cause unpleasant off flavors. i learned this lesson the 'hard way'. i thought i was getting the most bang for my buck out of my grains, but i was releasing compounds that should not end up in my brew. flush don't squeeze.

More than likely your off flavors came from elsewhere.

There's no reason not to squeeze.....that's another old brewer's myth that has been misunderstood...and has been shot down..But if often just get's repeated as ROTE without anyone stopping to look beyond the just repeating the warning...

Read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/?highlight=squeeze

And this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/?highlight=squeeze

From Aussie Homebrewer.com

Tannins And Astringency

If you are worried about squeezing your bag too much or crushing too fine, relax! Astringent beers do not come from finely crushed or squeezed husks but come rather from a combination of high temperatures and high pH. These conditions pull the polyhenols out of the husk. The higher your pH and the higher temperature you expose your grain to, the worse the problem becomes. Any brewer, traditional or BIAB, should never let these conditions arrive. If you do allow these conditions to arrive, then you will find yourself in exactly the same position as a traditional brewer. Many commercial breweries actually hammer mill their grain to powder for use in mash filter systems because they have control of their pH and temperatures. This control (and obviously expensive complex equipment) allows them non-astringent beers and “into kettle,” efficiencies of over 100%.

As long as you keep your steeping temps below 170, you won't be producing those supposed tannins that folks blindly say you would be squeezing out.

1) If your PH is off, or your steeping/mashing temp is above 170, your beer will extract tanins from the husks whether you squeeze or not

2) If your PH is ok, and your temps were below 170, squeeze away!

There's been some tests that have disproved the whole "don't squeeze the grain bag, because you will leech tannins" idea. I think there's even been a couple experiments on here detailed in threads. I think it's been pretty well shot down as one of those "old school" beliefs, that turn out to have little effect.

In fact if you are doing AG "Brew in a Bag" you are encouraged to squeeze the grain bag. They even showed it on basic brewing recently, the took a ladder with a hook attached, hung the grain bag, and twisted the hell out of it to drain every ounce of precious wort out of bag of grain.

This should launch as an mp-4

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv01-16-10cornpils.mp4

So is that's the case, that it is "OK" to do in AG Brew in the bag, then why would it really be bad in extract with grains brewing?

I wouldn't worry about it.

From BYO, MR Wizard;

The two most influential factors affecting the extraction of tannins from malt into wort are pH and temperature. All-grain brewers are very careful not to allow wort pH to reach more than about pH 6 during sparging because tannin extraction increases with pH. In all-grain brewing wort pH typically rises during the last stages of wort collection and is one of the factors letting the brewer know that wort collection should be stopped.....

Temperature also affects tannin extraction. This relationship is pretty simple. If you don’t want to run the risk of getting too much tannin in your wort, keep the temperature just below 170° F.

This is where the answer to your last question begins. You ask whether steeping and sparging released "unwanted tannins" in your beer. For starters, all beer contains tannins. Some tannins are implicated in haze and some lend astringent flavors to beer.

The type most homebrewers are concerned about are those affecting flavor. In any case, it is up to the brewer to decide if the level of tannins in their beer is too high. The (in)famous decoction mash is frequently recommended when a brewer is in search of more malt flavor. Decoction mashes boil malt and — among analytical brewers who are not afraid of rocking the boat with unpopular ideas — are known to increase the astringent character associated with tannins. In general I wouldn’t consider 170° F dangerously high with respect to tannin extraction. However, if you believe your beers may suffer because of too much astringency, consider adjusting your steep pH and lowering the temperature a few degrees.

They are often repeated ad nauseum by, especially new brewers, with little know understanding of the context behind them...or even a basic thinking like, "how come it says not to boil your grains, yet people doing decotion mashing do it all the time?" or "They say not to squeeze their grain bag, but in Brew in a Bag- they are encouraged to squeeze them...so what's going on here?."


It's the same with boiling your grains... posted a detailed discussion of the "chestnut" here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/less-than-satisfied-my-first-brew-224679/#post2639410

(There are actually a number of instances where what's been told about that is actually done in all grain brewing....)

 

[vegas20s]

@revvy

that's a whole LOT of knowledge thank you.:rockin:

Looks like I might have more of a pH problem than a sack squeezing problem.


heheheh!

 

[charlesmartin]

More than likely your off flavors came from elsewhere.

There's no reason not to squeeze.....that's another old brewer's myth that has been misunderstood...and has been shot down..But if often just get's repeated as ROTE without anyone stopping to look beyond the just repeating the warning...

Read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/?highlight=squeeze

And this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/?highlight=squeeze

revvy,
i must thank you. the information in the links is very informative. i appreciate such wise advice from an experienced brewer...probably why i spend so much time reading on this site. please forgive my noobness. i feel like a parrot who has been taught the wrong joke.

now if you don't mind, could you so kindly clarify as to how hard i can squeeze my sack?

 

[stamandster]

revvy,
now if you don't mind, could you so kindly clarify as to how hard i can squeeze my sack?

I roffled real hard on that one... I guess the guy from Nybrew who sells those 1 gallon kits needs some learnin' too. So don't feel bad Charles.

 

[vegas20s]

So I've been thinking about this 1st batch had roasted barley, chocolate malt and crystal. 2nd batch excluded roasted barley, that is where a lot of the potnetial for tannins and acidic features would have come from. I used all bottled water which is slightly alkaline. Hence after the malts were mashed I ended up with a more acidic mash on the first batch. Hence more astringent flavors.

Does this make sense in light of revvy's sack squeezing comments?