EZ Water Adjustment spreadsheet

[Bobby_M]

Really great spreadsheet, thanks for creating it and for also making it available for download. Also, thanks Bobby for the great videos.

One question on the initial numbers for mash water volume and sparge water volume. For example purposes let's say I mash with 5 gallons, sparge with 3 for 8 total preboil and expect a post boil volume of 6. The mash water one is easy--just the volume of water that is used in the initial mash (5). But, for the sparge water? In Bobby's videos, he uses the full amount of the sparge water (the additional 3 in my example) to get additions for the full pre-boil volume--so we're adding enough minerals to get the right ppm for 8 gallons. After thinking about this, doesn't the boil remove water but leave the minerals behind? (I'm not a scientist so not sure if the minerals would evaporate with the water vapor) So should the mineral additions calculate off of how much minerals we want with the finished beer (6 gallons vs. preboil of 8)

Thanks

I had the same concerns when I first started with this and thought about the concentration of minerals. The explanation that satisfied me was that we're trying to make water that you'd find in famous brewing cities. They start with that water and also concentrate the minerals down in the boil. When you're simply trying to dial in minimum levels, it's probably reasonable to undershoot a bit for that reason. I'm still learning.

 

[weetodd]

Fair point and I agree. I am going to do a little research and let you know if I come up with anything interesting that would sway it either way. I tend to take the approach that it's probably not going to really matter that much as long as you have things straight for the mash.

 

[RonRock]

Slightly off topic, after using the spreadsheet and creating water to match the brew, would I still want/need to use 5.2 mash stabilizer? Or would that defeat the purpose?

 

[LeeF]

I believe it defeats the purpose. 5.2 alone will get the mash pH where you need it but does not manipulate the Cl:SO4 or other minerals considered important to the yeast/beer. This spreadsheet and brewing salts also gets the mash pH where you need it but also gives you a better knob for fine tuning the mineral content.

 

[-TH-]

...I tend to take the approach that it's probably not going to really matter that much as long as you have things straight for the mash.

Bingo. The salts added to the boil are strictly for flavor purposes so I doubt you would be able to detect the difference of a few ppms in either direction - especially if you are within the recommended ranges. And besides, regardless of whether or not the ppms change after boiling, the recommended ranges pertain to the starting (or pre-boil) water levels and not post-boil levels.

 

[Homercidal]

I just want to pipe in here and tell you that I really like the EZ Calculator. I've been reading up on water for a while and trying to wrap my mind around the nomographs and chemistry, and this thing has at least gotten me able to comprehend what I need to do to adjust my water, and a basic understanding of what's going on.

Hopefully it will be the start of a more complete understanding, but for now it's a great tool to get me going.

 

[oloroso27]

TH,

Great spreadsheet. Thank you.

I'm confused though about the RA calculation on the bottom. When using your spreadsheet, it seems as though a REALLY high mash water RA is needed for dark beers. I was brewing an Irish Stout yesterday (34 SRM), and came up with the following adjustment using your spreadsheet:

____________________________________________________________
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 5.8
Mg: 5.2
Na: 11
Cl: 0.9
SO4: 1.9
HCO3: 57

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 3
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 0.75
CaCl2: 1.5 / 0
MgSO4: 0.8 / 0.6
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 233 / 142
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 83 / 52
Cl: 49 / 28
SO4: 59 / 59
CaCO3: 431 / 266

RA (mash only): 258 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.48 (Very Bitter)
___________________________________________

It seemed strange to have a CaCO3 level of 431 in my mash water (which is what I needed to have for the spreadsheet to calculate an adjusted mash RA of 258 *best for 26 to 31 SRM*. Isn't this excessive? If I were in Dublin using their water (which is supposedly ideal for the style), wouldn't I only have a mash water RA of 175, giving me a spreadsheet calculated adjusted mash RA of 83 *best for 12 to 27 SRM.*

Maybe I am totally missing something? I guess I'm confused.

 

[-TH-]

TH,

Great spreadsheet. Thank you.

I'm confused though about the RA calculation on the bottom. When using your spreadsheet, it seems as though a REALLY high mash water RA is needed for dark beers. I was brewing an Irish Stout yesterday (34 SRM), and came up with the following adjustment using your spreadsheet:

____________________________________________________________
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 5.8
Mg: 5.2
Na: 11
Cl: 0.9
SO4: 1.9
HCO3: 57

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 3
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 0.75
CaCl2: 1.5 / 0
MgSO4: 0.8 / 0.6
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 233 / 142
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 83 / 52
Cl: 49 / 28
SO4: 59 / 59
CaCO3: 431 / 266

RA (mash only): 258 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.48 (Very Bitter)
___________________________________________

It seemed strange to have a CaCO3 level of 431 in my mash water (which is what I needed to have for the spreadsheet to calculate an adjusted mash RA of 258 *best for 26 to 31 SRM*. Isn't this excessive? If I were in Dublin using their water (which is supposedly ideal for the style), wouldn't I only have a mash water RA of 175, giving me a spreadsheet calculated adjusted mash RA of 83 *best for 12 to 27 SRM.*

Maybe I am totally missing something? I guess I'm confused.

All I can say is that the spreadsheet uses Palmer's formula and nomograph. You are not the first to notice that on darker beers it seems the RA needs to get really high. I have seen others here post that they have had good success with leaving the RA a little below recommended on such beers. I am tempted to adjust the spreadsheet a bit but I am leery to veer from Palmer without doing a little more scientific research first.

 

[kozydogg]

I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. It gives "recommended" ranges, but most of the area specific profiles (london, munich...), have ranges outside of the recommended range. Which should i follow?

And where can I find recommended water profiles for many different styles of beer?

THanks

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. It gives "recommended" ranges, but most of the area specific profiles (london, munich...), have ranges outside of the recommended range. Which should i follow?

And where can I find recommended water profiles for many different styles of beer?

THanks

If you are trying to adjust your local water to a style specific benifit, you'd follow the recomended ranges as shown. However, if you are trying to match a regions profile then you try to match that profile as best as possible.

But there is no harm in trying to emulate a profile and tweaking it for the balance you seek.

Many regions are known for the style of beer they brew but, ironically, often the water is not ideal. And many breweries adjust their water accordingly. the profiles you will find won't be brewery profiles. They'll be water source profiles. And, as the brewery would, you'd adjust that to suite your desired results. For example, for Pilsen, you'd calculate to match profile and then adjust that to the proper RA balance.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Okay. The spreadsheet as is adjusts based on 33%HCl (Hydrochloric Acid) or 88%C3H603 (Lactic Acid) and adjust RA accordingly.

BUT, I use a 75% H3PO4 (Phosphoric Acid). What do I need to change in the formulas to calculate this addition properly? Or, to just add H3PO4 as an option of the acids?

 

[-TH-]

Okay. The spreadsheet as is adjusts based on 33%HCl (Hydrochloric Acid) or 88%C3H603 (Lactic Acid) and adjust RA accordingly.

BUT, I use a 75% H3PO4 (Phosphoric Acid). What do I need to change in the formulas to calculate this addition properly? Or, to just add H3PO4 as an option of the acids?

Palmer's spreadsheet instructions say this:

"I do not recommend the use of Phosphoric Acid because it removes calcium from the water as well, and changes the water profile that you are trying to adjust. The amount of calcium removed is complex and I don’t have a feedback loop in the spreadsheet to accommodate the effect."

I may have to avoid this one as well. However if you want to dig up some more info on the subject and it turns out to be not too complicated, I could possibly incorporate it.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Palmer's spreadsheet instructions say this:

"I do not recommend the use of Phosphoric Acid because it removes calcium from the water as well, and changes the water profile that you are trying to adjust. The amount of calcium removed is complex and I don’t have a feedback loop in the spreadsheet to accommodate the effect."

I may have to avoid this one as well. However if you want to dig up some more info on the subject and it turns out to be not too complicated, I could possibly incorporate it.

Yeah. My problem is that my starting pH is so base that the amount of Lactic or Citric Acid I need to balance it results in a sour twinge to the water.

Thought about HCl but, too many here were too adamant about Phosphoric and I had troubles finding a good product for brewing. So, I settled on a gallon of the ole' H3PO4. I can always add Calcium.

 

[hopvine]

I'm starting with RO water. The Bicarbonate and Alkalinity levels of the water are both 0, however depending on whether I have Bicarbonate or Alkalinity selected in my "Starting Water Profile", my Residual Alkalinity changes drastically (from 87 with Bicarbonate set to zero, to 129 with Alkalinity set to zero). Why does this change? Which value should I believe?

 

[-TH-]

Thank you hopvine! There was indeed a calculation error. I have fixed it now so please re-download and try again.

 

[RonRock]

Thank you hopvine! There was indeed a calculation error. I have fixed it now so please re-download and try again.

Does this effect all users of the spreadsheet? Should we update?

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

Uh oh...brewed a batch this weekend starting with RO water and this spread sheet....

 

[-TH-]

Does this effect all users of the spreadsheet? Should we update?

I would recommend all users update. The spreadsheet was miscalculating the alkalinity of the salt additions if you had "Alkalinity from CaCO3" checked in the starting water. If you had "Bicarbonate" selected (the default), there was no error.

 

[gxm]

Thanks for the spreadsheet, TH. This makes much more sense to me than the nomographs

 

[-TH-]

1-21-10: I re-wrote the instructions and changed the labels & colors of some of the fields to make things a little easier to understand for first-time users. But those of you who already use it might want to check it out too. If not, at least make sure you are at Version 1.6 or higher because there was a bug in previous versions.

 

[bctdi]

This thread is helping me as I live in Atlanta where the water is very soft like pilsen .... Been wondering why my beer seems to be lacking something... Quick question if anyone knows.... Does using a carbon filter change the mineral content even further ... In other words can I use the water report from the water co as is or do I need to account for the Brita carbon filtration?

 

[Bobby_M]

It removes a couple ppm of each ion and drops total alk by about 8ppm.

 

[bctdi]

Ok so it shouldn't affect it enough to worry about it. Thanks.

 

[djt17]

Quick question; are the Mash Additions in grams/gal of mash? Or is it the total amount added to the mash? Thanks.

 

[-TH-]

Quick question; are the Mash Additions in grams/gal of mash? Or is it the total amount added to the mash? Thanks.

Quick answer: it is the total added to the mash (NOT grams/gal).

 

[djt17]

Quick answer: it is the total added to the mash (NOT grams/gal).

Thanks for the quick response & for this very useful tool.

 

[JLem]

I just received the water report for some store-bought spring water (Arcadia Water, Stop & Shop). It includes Alkalinity (79 mg/L), Bicarbonate (79 mg/L) and Hardness as CaCO3 (110 mg/L). Which one do I use to determine my RA?

 

[Bobby_M]

You need all the other stuff like calcium, magnesium, etc to figure RA.

 

[JLem]

You need all the other stuff like calcium, magnesium, etc to figure RA.

I have all that too - just wondering which of the ones I mentioned I need as well - Alkalinity (79 mg/L), Bicarbonate (79 mg/L) and Hardness as CaCO3 (110 mg/L).

 

[Bobby_M]

Either total alkalinity or bicarbonate is fine. Either one can be entered into TH's sheet.