Extract vs. All Grain in competitions

[pacebrew]

This thread is not to start an argument. It is just something that i think should be.

Extract brewing, and steeping grains miss a giant factor in the brewing process.

the mash.

I dont believe that all grain and extract should be in the same competitions. Sure, we know that everything from the boil on is basically the same process. But the mash in brewing is in my opinion, aside from fermentation, the most important aspect to it all. It adds an extra level of difficulty and knowledge, that the extract brewer may possess but not put into practice.

With this being something that is undeniable. Why do they still combine extract and all grain beers in competitions?

im sure this has been discussed before, but my brief search did not provide me with any conclusions.

 

[Revvy]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion........

And if you don't think this won't start an argument, you are deluding yourself.

 

[pacebrew]

its not an opinion... it is two totally different brewing styles. That's all im saying, maybe the judges should compensate for difficulty, they do so in nearly every other competition in the world.

 

[mattattack]

Competition wise i have no idea why the two styles aren't in different categories. But I will say this sometimes i just don't feel like spending 3 hours over a kettle. extract is quick and easy but sometimes you do have to do all grain to get that certain flavor or feel that extract just doesn't give you.

 

[marubozo]

Who cares about difficulty? They are judging the final taste of a product in a blind taste test. Would you care if your favorite commercial beer had a completely computerized process that required little to no human intervention other than pushing a few buttons instead of having them make every batch by hand? No, all you care about as a beer fan is that the beer tastes good and meets your expectations. It doesn't matter how it got from grain to glass as long as it tastes good.

 

[pacebrew]

fair point. however, i still think conducting your own mash is a huge factor in producing beer or even as far as beer styles... mash temp variability, etc..

 

[marubozo]

Well there's no arguing that you have far more flexibility in brewing all grain, but you just mentioned competitions. In the end, each category has strict guidelines as far as the beer goes so if someone can achieve that using extract or grain it really shouldn't matter. It meets the criteria, it tastes good, so may the best beer win.

 

[SavageSteve]

It's really a matter of the quality of the ingredients and the skill of the brewer, not simply extract vs. all grain. If an extract brewer uses quality fresh ingredients, then s/he can compete directly with an all grain brewer, unless the style uses specialty grains that are better off mashed.

The beer being judged is the end result of a process, not the specific method of brewing.

It doesn't matter how you get there, it's the end result that counts.

IMHO.

-Steve

 

[pacebrew]

Ok I buy that reason. If anything the flexibility of all grain should theoretically produce the score prmium I'm thinking about. And if an extract brewer can hit that then may the best beer win. Good thread thanks all.

 

[Tlylebrew]

From what I've read an extract should never win over all grain.. But I have to add, that I have made some delicious extract brews, ones I would have no problem paying money for in the store.. My friends seem to agree too.

 

[Olddog]

OK, say they do separate extract beer from AG beer in competitions, how do you verify the brewer is telling the truth? After all, an expert extract brewer will often make better beer than a novice all grainer brewer.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Personally, I take (a slight) offense to any brewer who says all grain makes a superior brew when it clearly has not been proven one way or another. It's just a "purist" point of view.

As someone who has won Best of Style and Best of Show with an all DME recipe I can see where an all grainer could feel like a sore loser because he/she was beat out by extract batch.

The loss can indicate that he/she didn't brew as well or the judges had a style preference that day.

 

[thataintchicken]

truth.

My extract based Hefeweizen and Milk stout have always been better than my AG batches. My AG Kolsch and IPA's are better than extract. I do partial mashes for my Belgians because I have small pots and a confined workspace.

I use whatever tools are available to get the quality product I want.
Taking an analogy further, I won't refuse to use a drill just because it's a Milwaukee and I prefer a DeWalt.

Competition wise -- I enter both Extracts and AG.

 

[JNye]

To me extract brewing has a serious disconect with the brewing process. I did 3. Immediatley i thought this isn't brewing. Thats not to say i won't brew extract again. as a time saver hell yes...but you are paying someone else to do a critical part of the brewing for you. To me its wierd. I'm not sure I would want to enter an all extract brew. And yes I realize we all pay the maltsters. But I guess I just needed to draw the line somewhere.

Because you cannot police it properly i say its cool, extract brewers are at a disadvantage from the start anyways right(supposidley). I'm not sure I would ever enter one though.

 

[thataintchicken]

To me extract brewing has a serious disconect with the brewing process. I did 3. Immediatley i thought this isn't brewing. Thats not to say i won't brew extract again. as a time saver hell yes...but you are paying someone else to do a critical part of the brewing for you.

some brewers equate extract brewing to making Kool-Aid.
It's understandable.
But homebrewing is about making something YOU like. Not keeping up with the Joneses. If you can get a quality extract thats fresh, why not use it?

 

[marubozo]

It's funny to see debates about this. Would you stop going to your favorite restaurant if you found out they don't make their own pasta from scratch? Or maybe they use canned tomatoes as a base for their sauce? Or heaven forbid they don't raise their own cattle and buy beef that's been raised a few hundred miles away and you have no control over how it's raised and butchered.

It's no different than brewing. Just like someone can grow their own hops, get fresh local grain and complete the whole brewing process from start to finish with raw ingredients, that doesn't mean because someone takes a few steps out of the process and buys an extract for a base malt is doing anything different. If that were the case then 99% of the food you eat would be unworthy of eating because someone took a processed base ingredient to make their recipe.

Ultimately the only thing that matters is what's in the glass. If you take a sip and think it tastes good, who ****ing cares how it was made? Some all grain brewers produce dog**** and some extract brewers produce liquid gold. It doesn't matter as long as you like it.

 

[ChshreCat]

How would you place partial mash brewing in this? A percentage of fermentables cutoff? Just wouldn't work. There are too many shades of gray to try to divide it up and judge by process.

 

[Olddog]

Ultimately the only thing that matters is what's in the glass. If you take a sip and think it tastes good, who ****ing cares how it was made? Some all grain brewers produce dog**** and some extract brewers produce liquid gold. It doesn't matter as long as you like it.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Beers are judged on quality, not how they are made.

 

[Kickass]

Pacebrew, do you grow your own hops? If not your beer should be entered in a different comp. I mean, seriously, you may have spent 3 more hours monitoring the temp on your AG mash than I did on my extract but…I spent 6 months constantly/obsessively monitoring a few little bines of Chinook and cascade. Do you cultivate your yeast from a bottle of Belgium beer, if not you should enter a different comp.

Come on, the caliber of your comments only serves to identify your ignorant and undesirable pretentious presence on a forum that has seen this many times over.

 

[bob1852]

pacebrew is a troll. look at the other threads he's started to stir the pot.

 

[billvon]

From what I've read an extract should never win over all grain.

I just entered a bunch of beer in a local comp. Got a gold for an extract, a silver for an all-grain. (And I didn't even malt my own grain!)

 

[ChshreCat]

I finished second in BOS in the HBT BJCP comp this past summer with a partial mash APA. Granted, it's not an all-extract brew, but it uses extract for a good percentage of the fermentables.

 

[DaveMcPhee]

fair point. however, i still think conducting your own mash is a huge factor in producing beer or even as far as beer styles... mash temp variability, etc..

then prove it by going toe to toe in a blind taste test against an extract brew

 

[SteveM]

OK, say they do separate extract beer from AG beer in competitions, how do you verify the brewer is telling the truth? After all, an expert extract brewer will often make better beer than a novice all grainer brewer.

: D

Yeah, especially when it's been known to happen that people have taken labels off of commercial bottles, recap them and enter them as their own product!

I have a better idea - institute a"degree of difficulty" multiplier factor! So the guy who simply enters a commercial bottle, relabeled and recapped, would get a 1, while the guy who does an extract gets maybe 1.5, partial mash a 2, and the AG brewer gets 3. So the judges results would be based on scores times degree of difficulty.

 

[AnOldUR]

If you’re only looking to have a good beer in your hand there are extremes as to how it got there. At one end, you grow the grain and hops, cultivate the yeast, and perform every other step required. The opposite end, you buy the finished product. For competition purposes the line is drawn at adding yeast to wort and watching it ferment (pre-hopped, no boil kit.) Your only challenge is temperature control and sanitation. You go into a contest with full knowledge that you may be competing against an entry that is more Coopers Beer than Joe’s Homebrew. Your task is to make something better and not whine because you don’t like the rules.

Since beers are judged against how well they match the commercial standards aren’t we in effect competing against them?

In the end, at what point you call a beer your own is determined by personal standards. Competitions are for fun, entertainment and education. Don’t take them too seriously.




Disclaimer: I once whined about blended beers in competitions but have since changed my views.

 

[remilard]

From what I've read an extract should never win over all grain..

You've read wrong. Extract brews win gold medals in the second round of the NHC every year. The High Plains Brewer of the Year the past two years is an extract (and sometimes partial mash when absolutely necessary) brewer.

Most good brewers happen to be all-grain brewers but there is no causality there.

 

[SteveM]

You've read wrong. Extract brews win gold medals in the second round of the NHC every year. The High Plains Brewer of the Year the past two years is an extract (and sometimes partial mash when absolutely necessary) brewer.

Most good brewers happen to be all-grain brewers but there is no causality there.

I think that was his point - that there is no natural advantage to using AG over extract.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I think that was his point - that there is no natural advantage to using AG over extract.

It still comes down to the skill of the brewer...

 

[Newton]

Pliny the Elder is made with hop extract. That beer obviously sucks compared the Schlitz as Sclitz is made with pellets ...

 

[wonderbread23]

I brew for fun; mashing adds another level to this. I like taking the process down to the most basic level. Its the same reason I cook elaborate meals scratch, make my own breads, etc. Also, I have serious doubts into what exactly the extract is made out of. Who knows what they mashed at, how much dextrin malt is in there, how much refined sugar they used, what kind of additives / preservatives were added, etc. I like to control the process. I say let the extract brewers enter. As an all-grain brewer in control of my process, I am not threatened by this.