Equipment sources for 1.5bbl nano-brewery

[jgmillr1]

I'm exploring setting up a nano-brewery in my local town. I figure we would start out small scale with equipment sized at about the 1.5bbl level. As the operation grows over time, then this equipment could eventually become either backup or be used for experimental runs. But it seems that this 1.5bbl scale is caught between the serious homebrew and the microbrew worlds.

For example, finding a grain mill that isn't a hand crank is hard. While I expect to pay over $1k for a motorized commercial mill, this one (https://www.monsterbrewinghardware.com/store/pc/MM-3ProG-Kit-NEW-3p327.htm) has a wooden base and doesn't even have a 304-SS hopper.

Am I wrong that my impression of Spike is that it is a great option for homebrew but it makes for a low-quality budget brand commercial operation? Stout (https://conical-fermenter.com/) looks like they have better quality and larger options but also seem to have incomplete hardware, as evidenced by the lack of SS heating elements for their electric brew kettles or monitoring/control hardware.

So, what brands and where should I be looking for a quality 1.5bbl set up?

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Congrats and good luck on the start up! I would say if we're known for anything it's our quality and customer service. Our new Nano (LINK) is 100% purpose built for commercial use. All the components are beefed up over our home brew systems and also design considerations like the bottom drains, drip tray, grain out door, etc were added for ease of use. It's roughly 90% manufactured in the US which nobody else in the space can claim. Most of the work is done in our facility in Milwaukee; feel free to stop up for a tour and to speak with one of our customer relations people. Also with our oversized tanks (55gal to the top) a 1.5bbl batch won't be a problem!

The Nano has only been on the market for about 3-4mo (although we have been testing for more than a year) but we're starting to see some videos from owners. Below is a video from PawPrint Brewing in Minnesota. He gives a great walkthrough of his system. Please drop us a note if you have any other questions! https://spikebrewing.freshdesk.com/support/tickets/new

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[augiedoggy]

I'm exploring setting up a nano-brewery in my local town. I figure we would start out small scale with equipment sized at about the 1.5bbl level. As the operation grows over time, then this equipment could eventually become either backup or be used for experimental runs. But it seems that this 1.5bbl scale is caught between the serious homebrew and the microbrew worlds.

For example, finding a grain mill that isn't a hand crank is hard. While I expect to pay over $1k for a motorized commercial mill, this one (https://www.monsterbrewinghardware.com/store/pc/MM-3ProG-Kit-NEW-3p327.htm) has a wooden base and doesn't even have a 304-SS hopper.

Am I wrong that my impression of Spike is that it is a great option for homebrew but it makes for a low-quality budget brand commercial operation? Stout (https://conical-fermenter.com/) looks like they have better quality and larger options but also seem to have incomplete hardware, as evidenced by the lack of SS heating elements for their electric brew kettles or monitoring/control hardware.

So, what brands and where should I be looking for a quality 1.5bbl set up?

long post..Sorry in advance for the novel but I have been in your shoes and opened a brewery which ended up being a brewpub.(Because of rules we werent aware of when we started our journey)

Where to start... If your looking at 1.5bbl its very likely a temporary solution unless this is a hobby business your not depending on for profit.

I was in your shoes about 3 years ago. my brewing partner and I were looking to open a small nano in town. He wanted a 1-1.5bbl setup. I spent a lot of time talking to ever brewery Owner or brewer I could over the last 5 years as I travel for work and sometimes to very rural areas.
I heard many times that I should buy the largest system I could upfront. I have been to more than one nano that said they were working themselves like dogs to keep up on such a tiny system and I thought how? many of them put thier smaller systems up for sale and had to do an unexpected finance situation to get a larger system in within months of opening. well 3 years later and I and my brewing partner own a very small brewpub which currently only has a max tasting room capacity of 40 people. when we first opened we had to brew multiple times a week and that with a 3bbl system we pieced together ourselves with ordering or kettles from sungood machinery (they are the manufacturer for some other big brands you know) We did not fill any growlers at this time or distribute any beer.

Microbreweries start out on a bigger scale (10bbl-up) typically 7bbl and smaller are nanos and most doing 1.5bbl are doing so with homemade or homebrewing stuff because they are trying to save money for bigger equipment.

Once you go with a 1.5 you have to think about all those fermenters too... My advice is go bigger from the get go so you dont loose money and tie up what you have while trying to sell the smaller system. figure out an actual business plan. For example at 1.5bbl do you plan on selling cans or growlers? how about to bars? if so you better have a lot of brewers or expect to be brewing every day while someone else runs the business. 3 kegs of beer for the same amount of time and labor as you could be producing much more at a reduced cost just isnt as profitable. on the flip side if your in a very rural area and youve got nothing but time on your hands you can certainly make it work. Many have but id talk to those folks first.

As far as a grain mill, at 1.5bbl you absolutely have no need for a commercial setup.
For our 3bbl I bought a kegco 3 roller mill for $150 which has the real ball bearings that only come as a very expensive option from MM. I motorized it and mounted it to a steel cart from harbor freight. total investment about $400... at this point over a year later its down to being used only once a week for 3bbl brew sessions but has around 10,000lbs of grain crushed through it with zero issues or signs of wear.

ITS VERY EASY TO GET TALKED INTO SPENDING MORE THAN YOU NEED! There are lot of solicitors out there, Many have gone from brewing to selling brewing equipment themselves as it can be a very profitable business right now... The markups on the equipment are very large. and even used equipment often sells for much more than new when people assemble a "complete system" and offer it for sale. They know most startups are overwhelmed and often havent done enough comparision shopping. Often on probrewer you will see unused equipment purchased but never even used as owners learn this before they even get the doors open and realize they dont have the correct fit for their business plan. Also keep in mind every time you change your brewing system there are liquor license amendments that need to be made and approvals to wait for we have been waiting for over 4 months for one ourselves just to be able to start construction on a seating area expansion.

I suggest going electric since there are less expensive safety requirements but talk to your city or town inspector first and see what HIS or HER requirements are going to be... for a UL LISTED nano brewing control panel its a sellers market. Ive seen 3bbl control panels that sell for over 20k! and these were basic in functionality. if you know a good electrician and the inspector is ok with it you can save yourself thousands here. By law it does not need ul listing... if its not hardwired to the building but rather plugs in it can be argued that its not even the responsibility of the building inspector. I'm not saying cut corners. I'm just saying you shouldnt have to spend 12-20k on a grand worth of hardware assembled into a control panel by someone. Also do your research on power requirements vs what you have in your building along with all the other stuff like walk in coolers...

To give you an idea of what you could spend for a 3bbl system we paid under 20k for our entire current setup with the 3 brites and 4 plastic conicals... This does not include the stainless unitanks we havent gotten yet.

Dont for get about all the kegs you will need along with some sort of means to clean them... we bought all ours used and they ranged from $25 to 65 each.... you can build a manual keg cleaner for sankes for under $150 if you already have a powerful pump and multi bay sink.

If I didnt want to mess with piecing a "system" together and had the extra money to spend I think the blichmann systems are priced very reasonably for what you get..
https://www.blichmannengineering.com/3-5-bbl-hybrid-brewhouse.html
comparing what we paid for the stuff included here we spent about 11k but certain things we have are upgraded like the plate chiller (we use a sabco pro that is sanitary and can be disassembled and cleaned as well as cleaned with lye) and our controls are much more capable as well as pumps.


Personally I think you honestly want a much smaller setup for experimental runs.. Many of the 20-30bbl micros Ive toured use 15-20gallon kettle based basic 3 vessel systems for pilot batches.

Dont take my word for it though, if your serious I suggest you take a trip to other nano breweries and speak with the owners and get thier feedback on what they would do differently. different business models work in different areas.. in the beginning you will be swamped but later it can take a lot of marketing and effort. If we didnt serve wine and cider and have a small food menu for example I dont think we would be anywhere near as successful at this point even with 11 beers on tap. If you the only game in town for miles then it will be a different story.

 

[augiedoggy]

Good luck BTW!

Dont get discouraged.

 

[sicktght311]

Also adding to what was said above by auggie. Some of the nanos in my area are using stout systems with a lot of luck. They pieced together what they needed, and control everything from a panel from TheElectricBrewery customized to their needs. Fermenters should be a combination of system size and double your system size if you can, so you can double batch without having to take up 2 fermenters. You could probably put together a 3bbl system, with some kind of hot water on demand system so you can double batch quickly by mashing batch 2 as you're boiling batch 1.

5-7bbl is great if you're looking to cut your brew days down, but also if you're slightly oversized from a consumption standpoint, you'll be stuck with waiting for your beer to kick before you can try something else. A 3bbl system might give you flexibility to brew experimental things and tweak recipes giving you more variety, but its certainly going to be a full time job keeping up.

Good luck to you!!!

 

[augiedoggy]

Also adding to what was said above by auggie. Some of the nanos in my area are using stout systems with a lot of luck. They pieced together what they needed, and control everything from a panel from TheElectricBrewery customized to their needs. Fermenters should be a combination of system size and double your system size if you can, so you can double batch without having to take up 2 fermenters. You could probably put together a 3bbl system, with some kind of hot water on demand system so you can double batch quickly by mashing batch 2 as you're boiling batch 1.

5-7bbl is great if you're looking to cut your brew days down, but also if you're slightly oversized from a consumption standpoint, you'll be stuck with waiting for your beer to kick before you can try something else. A 3bbl system might give you flexibility to brew experimental things and tweak recipes giving you more variety, but its certainly going to be a full time job keeping up.

Good luck to you!!!

Good point
Our kettles are from the manufacturer stout uses for some of thier tanks... The difference is if I bought through stout at the time of my purchase, the cost would have been double to me and the estimated wait 3 months longer. We can easily brew 1.5bbls on our 3bbl stout system BTW. We feel no need to do the double size fermenter thing for the reasons you just mentioned but we have the option to buy larger fermenters if we ever get a beer that sells that quickly by itself to justify it. We both have other full time jobs so this in fact saves us a lot of work. We are only open four evenings a week..

I know of friends that use on demand water which works well but because we use city water we end up saving money with our HLT.. We fill it with the water from running our chiller and we use that for CIP and even brew water for a later brew after being treated with minerals and salts. we can naturally dechlorinate it this way as well. lots of ways to make a system flexible to ones needs though.


https://conical-fermenter.com/3.5-bbl-conical-fermenter-with-top-manway.html?cat=17
We just bought these exact 3.5 bbl dual zone insulated and jacketed fermenters from the manufacturer BTW for $3095 each with accessories such as the sight glass and valves... I dont know what the cost would be through stout with optional accessories but the smaller 3bbl single zone version sells for $4700 from stout. So as you can see lots to be saved depending on retailer and by shopping around. Here is a pic of the ones we bought before they were shipped.

 

[jgmillr1]

Thanks for the great info @augiedoggy! This really helps frame our approach and helps me keep focused our future needs. No doubt that I will have a myriad of additional detailed questions as we get further down the path.

We plan to also offer wine and cider. (I currently own and operate a local winery, so I have a question out to our ATC on what we need to do in terms of permits to pull those products in.) I've started talking to other local microbreweries as well for their tips.

At this point, we are still hunting for a good location. Many of the existing buildings are older and have character, but contain full basements. I have concerns about how much weight the floor can take where we'd do our production. I'm also gathering build-out requirements for the barrier restrictions that the state excise folks will require. So we might end up planning a green-field construction and fight for the zoning change if needed. Our town is only about 3000 people, but it is on pace to grow quickly in the next 10 years and it's over 10 miles to the next closest micro-brewery.

If you don't mind a few more questions:
* Do you have a contact for the manufacturer where you bought your 3.5bbl fermenters?

* Do you suggest purchasing an RO system for brewing water so that the pH and mineral content can be more precisely adjusted for the desired beer style?

* What power requirements do you suggest for operating a 3.5-7bbl electric kettle, a HLT and chiller?

* I assume I'd need one each of a HLT, mash-tun, and boil kettle. How many fermenters would you recommend? How many Brite tanks are needed for carbonation? Is a separate conical tank good to have for racking & filtering?

* Are plate & frame pad filters good for beer? What filtration rating is good for the final pad filtration, K100?

* Do you suggest kegging and tapping kegs for serving or dispensing from a brite tank?

* Do customers really care about seeing the the brewing equipment or can it be hidden in the back?

* How many types of beer are good for starting out?

Thanks again!

 

[Wayne1]

If you are really serious about getting into pro brewing, I highly suggest you plan to attend the https://www.craftbrewersconference.com/

There are many seminars of interest to start ups and nano operations. There is also a great trade show where you can look over lots of gear and talk to many people in the same situation as you.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I heard many times that I should buy the largest system I could upfront.

Great info from augie. I listen to a lot of podcasts and have heard this repeated a lot when brewers talk about starting nanos or microbreweries. Essentially saying it's so hard to turn a profit on such small volume and that makes it really hard to save the capital for expansion. But I've heard them also say what it can be good for is proof on concept if you want to do that before securing the financing or shelling out the $$ to expand. Good luck OP

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the great info @augiedoggy! This really helps frame our approach and helps me keep focused our future needs. No doubt that I will have a myriad of additional detailed questions as we get further down the path.

We plan to also offer wine and cider. (I currently own and operate a local winery, so I have a question out to our ATC on what we need to do in terms of permits to pull those products in.) I've started talking to other local microbreweries as well for their tips.

At this point, we are still hunting for a good location. Many of the existing buildings are older and have character, but contain full basements. I have concerns about how much weight the floor can take where we'd do our production. I'm also gathering build-out requirements for the barrier restrictions that the state excise folks will require. So we might end up planning a green-field construction and fight for the zoning change if needed. Our town is only about 3000 people, but it is on pace to grow quickly in the next 10 years and it's over 10 miles to the next closest micro-brewery.

If you don't mind a few more questions:
* Do you have a contact for the manufacturer where you bought your 3.5bbl fermenters?

* Do you suggest purchasing an RO system for brewing water so that the pH and mineral content can be more precisely adjusted for the desired beer style?

* What power requirements do you suggest for operating a 3.5-7bbl electric kettle, a HLT and chiller?

* I assume I'd need one each of a HLT, mash-tun, and boil kettle. How many fermenters would you recommend? How many Brite tanks are needed for carbonation? Is a separate conical tank good to have for racking & filtering?

* Are plate & frame pad filters good for beer? What filtration rating is good for the final pad filtration, K100?

* Do you suggest kegging and tapping kegs for serving or dispensing from a brite tank?

* Do customers really care about seeing the the brewing equipment or can it be hidden in the back?

* How many types of beer are good for starting out?

Thanks again!

[email protected] is who Ive dealt with.

We do not use RO water. I have that at home and found its really not needed as our municipalities water is some of the best on the east coast. we had it tested a couple times by wards labs and adjust from those base results.

for 5-7bbl you will likely need 150-200a if single phase. you can get away with as little as 100a for 5bbl though most panel builders will steer you to getting more power.

We dont filter... for our setup we find cold crashing in conicals works well enough for clear beer.

Serving from brites takes up al lot more room and costs a lot more... we have 3 brites but but usually keg from them and serve from kegs. some states require branding on each beer some dont if serving directly from brites. (Vat to tap)

Yes people like to see the brewing equipment... but its not absolutely needed. we have ours on display and people still seem surprised we make all the beer onsite.

We started will 11 types of beer on tap and one hard cider.. having a good variety is important. I would say at the very least 6 taps.

 

[madscientist451]

* Are plate & frame pad filters good for beer? What filtration rating is good for the final pad filtration, K100?

Beer drinkers that seek out small breweries don't care if the beer is filtered or not.
Save the time and effort, put up a sign that says all of your beer is unfiltered and may or may not be hazy. Call it "natural" or whatever you want, make it selling point, your're different than the big breweries. If the customer wants super clear beer, have some Miller High Life available so they'll be happy. Put all your efforts in to offering as many different choices as you can. Note: I don't filter any of my beer, cider and wine and most will clear up on their own without any filters or finings added.
Small breweries that have 4-5 beers that all taste basically the same are really annoying.
Wishing you best of luck!