Entered first contest to get feedback, thoughts? Too Bitter.

[dirtyb15]

So after making about 10 various pale ales and IPAs that I always found to be too bitter i finally entered a beer into a contest to get some feedback. The beer I entered was a pale ale, magnum bittering for 60min, cascade/citra at 20, 5 and dryhop. I don't have the amounts with me, but brewtarget calculated said IBU's should be about 32 which I would not expect to be overly bitter for the style.

Overall i got a 25 as a score for the beer. There were no fermentation flaws etc.., mostly feedback was it was not to style because it was too bitter /overly hopped, and over carbonated. Also not enough malt balance. One judge suggested simply reducing the amount of bittering hops. So, i guess my first question is maybe the IBUs are more than what I am getting in Brewtarget. If this is the case, how should i adjust for future beers?

I also mashed this one at 150, wondering if i should up it a little to help with the malt balance? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[ImNoExpert]

You could try first wort hops for your bittering hops.

 

[Psylocide]

What is the actual recipe?

 

[kombat]

You could mash a little higher or add more unfermentables, we'd have to see the recipe. I like the first wort hops idea. I actually did a Pale Ale last weekend where I didn't add any hops during the boil at all. I had mash hops, first wort hops, then a bunch of steeping hops. Try it yourself next time and see if you like the result.

 

[Gameface]

Yeah, I'd need to see the recipe and the AAs on the hops you used.

32 IBUs isn't too bitter, so I suspect something isn't being taken into consideration.

 

[dirtyb15]

Recipe is at home, ill post it tonight. thanks!

 

[dirtyb15]

Okay below is recipe. IBUs were supposed to be 36, i think i said 32 above, but either way.... I usually get the kettle to full boil, add in the 60min hop addition etc.. At 60 min i turn off the burner stir it for a bit to get hops ect in the middle, then send it through a counterflow chiller. The chiller does take about 20-30 min to fully drain since the copper is only 1/4". Could this be part of the problem since wort temps are still pretty high during this time?


Batch Size 8.500 gal Boil Size 9.750 gal
Boil Time 60.000 min Efficiency 70%
OG 1.052 FG 1.013
ABV 5.1% IBU 36.1 (Tinseth)
Color 9.4 srm (Morey) Calories (per 12 oz.) 172
Fermentables
Total grain: 18.500 lbName Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt (2 Row) US Grain 16.000 lb Yes No 79% 2.0 srm
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L Grain 1.500 lb Yes No 74% 60.0 srm
Briess - Munich Malt 10L Grain 1.000 lb Yes No 77% 10.0 srm
Hops
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Magnum 13.5% 0.750 oz Boil 60.000 min Pellet 19.1
Cascade 6.0% 0.500 oz Boil 20.000 min Pellet 3.4
Citra 12.0% 0.500 oz Boil 20.000 min Pellet 6.8
Cascade 6.0% 1.000 oz Boil 5.000 min Pellet 2.3
Citra 12.0% 1.000 oz Boil 5.000 min Pellet 4.5
Cascade 6.0% 1.000 oz Boil 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Citra 12.0% 1.000 oz Boil 0.000 s Pellet 0.0

 

[iijakii]

Too bitter pale ale? No such thing. Call him east coast slime and keep with it.

 

[d3track]

I'd try it skipping the 20 min addition, and maybe go for 152* mash with a mash out.

 

[kev211]

I just plugged you recipe into brewers friend and got 45.something IBU's which is a little high for an APA, but I wouldnt say that its "too bitter". Looks like a good recipe to me! Id drink it!

 

[jekeane]

What is your water like? Certain profiles can accentuate bitterness.

 

[dirtyb15]

I just plugged you recipe into brewers friend and got 45.something IBU's which is a little high for an APA, but I wouldnt say that its "too bitter". Looks like a good recipe to me! Id drink it!

45 huh, wonder why brewtarget is giving me 36.. Unless percentages on alpha acids are different.

jekeane, up till the last two brews i was using my tap water, i had it tested and it had extremely high sulfates. I ended up buying a RO system and i have been using all RO water with some additions to build it up a little. I can't remember the exact numbers, but i did get a meter, and the total disolved solids went from something like 330 to about 20 or so after going through the RO system.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Try magnum at 45 minutes. This will probably make the biggest bitterness difference. Most people believe after 30 minutes it is more aroma and not as much bitterness addition.

 

[dirtyb15]

You could try first wort hops for your bittering hops.

So i have never done first wort hops before, but i have been reading and sounds interesting. If i were to try this, say on this recipe, would i use the magnum or the cascade/citra ? If the latter, do you still use the magnum for bittering?

 

[ImNoExpert]

So i have never done first wort hops before, but i have been reading and sounds interesting. If i were to try this, say on this recipe, would i use the magnum or the cascade/citra ? If the latter, do you still use the magnum for bittering?

Some resources suggest taking portion of your late addition hops and doing the FWH. I've had success mellowing my bittering additions by switching them to a FWH. IBUs actually increase, but the sharp bitter hop edge is "rounded". Makes for a really pleasant APA and DIPA.

I'm still experimenting, though.

I'd suggest these blog posts from Brad Smith:

The First Wort Hop: Beer Brewing Techniques

First Wort Hops (FWH) in Beer Revisited

 

[kyle187]

Just a thought, are you using any type of chiller? If not, then any late addition hops would be at higher temps longer which could result in them adding more bitterness that you intended.

 

[Seismogenic]

45 huh, wonder why brewtarget is giving me 36.. Unless percentages on alpha acids are different.

Pretty much every package of hop pellets I've ever bought has had a different AA percentage from the default brewing software value. Sometimes it's a difference of several percentage points. If you agree with the judge that things are coming out too bitter, that might be a good thing to check first. If you disagree and like the flavor just fine, you don't have to listen to that guy...

 

[dirtyb15]

Just a thought, are you using any type of chiller? If not, then any late addition hops would be at higher temps longer which could result in them adding more bitterness that you intended.

I was wondering about this! I use a counterflow chiller, but it is only 1/4" diameter copper on the inside so it takes a long time to drain out. Think that could be the issue??

 

[Eh_Modern_Drunkard]

That's almost identical to a hop type, amount, and schedule I have for one of my IPAs hahaha
It might be a bit forward to be a pale, but it looks like a tasty IPA recipe!

 

[kyle187]

I was wondering about this! I use a counterflow chiller, but it is only 1/4" diameter copper on the inside so it takes a long time to drain out. Think that could be the issue??

If it is taking a while for your wort to drain through your counterflow chiller then maybe the temps are staying high enough for additional isomerization to occur.

From BYO:

"Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C). Homebrewers trying to calculate a beer's IBUs will need to guesstimate how much isomerization is occurring. The closer the wort is to 212 °F (100 °C) the higher the alpha acid isomerization rate."

 

[Gameface]

I was wondering about this! I use a counterflow chiller, but it is only 1/4" diameter copper on the inside so it takes a long time to drain out. Think that could be the issue??

You might be getting additional bitterness not accounted for but the bottom line is, do you think it's too bitter?

 

[dirtyb15]

Yes, all of my pale ales / ipas have been more bitter than i expect based on the calculated IBUs. I have been down so many roads trying to fix it, i really thought the water would be the solution .

I also have not had much feedback since i am the only one who really drinks them here, so it was reassuring to see 3 judges all say it was too bitter

 

[Gameface]

Yes, all of my pale ales / ipas have been more bitter than i expect based on the calculated IBUs. I have been down so many roads trying to fix it, i really thought the water would be the solution .

I also have not had much feedback since i am the only one who really drinks them here, so it was reassuring to see 3 judges all say it was too bitter

Then there must be something off about the way you are calculating.

I'd say, based on that, using your bittering/early hops as first wort hops is a good idea. For one, it does take the edge off a little. For another, it should negate slow chill times a little because they've already given everything they've got.

I'd also avoid adding hops with 20 or even 15min to go in the boil. Sort of personal preference, but if you want the flavor and aroma you get more bang for your buck adding them latter and by adding them earlier you're gonna be extracting AAs that you don't necessarily want.

I'd go so far as to say you should try an all first wort hop and flameout hop beer and see how it turns out.

 

[stpug]

... more bang for your buck adding them latter and...

Your religion is showing

 

[Gameface]

Your religion is showing

lol

 

[glick]

What is your water like? Certain profiles can accentuate bitterness.

Came in to post this!! Water can have a HUGE impact on beer flavor, including bitterness.

 

[Gameface]

I think he said he has a RO system.

 

[BigRob]

If the hops are still in your kettle while draining, then the majority of your wort is still above 170F and you have 6 ounces of high-ish alpha hops adding more and more bitterness.

You can play with FWH and messing with your bittering addition, but getting a hop sock or spider and pulling the hops when your timer dings, or adding them as whirlpool/steep addition in your software will probably give you a more accurate IBU accounting.

 

[dirtyb15]

Interesting. I mainly use pellets, will the hop sacks contain most of them when i go to pull them out?

Lots of great ideas everyone thanks so much. I am planning on brewing tonight so now just gotta figure out what to try first.

I also built a new counterflow chiller and it should empty out the kettle a little faster.

 

[BigRob]

Hop bags work fine for pellets, you'll have some sludgy dust that gets out (depending on how fine the weave is on your bag). But it's not a huge amount.