English (kinda) IPA - looking for critique

[dtwhite]

I'm a relatively new homebrewer, this is the first recipe I've put together completely from scratch and I'd like some critique. I'm a huge Firestone fan so I decided to try something with English Ale yeast and threw some Maris Otter in there as well. Any ideas are welcome, I have no idea if Nelson Sauvin and Mosaic really go together all that well, I just happened to be ordering some. I've also got a decent amount of Amarillo, Cascade, Citra, and Sorachi Ace in my freezer.

I've only done a couple of brews with my 10 gallon mash tun, before that a handful of brews via BIAB, and before that only a handful of brews with extract. I'm ok with it turning out boozer if I manage to get a higher efficiency this time. I picked a low mash temp in order to counteract the lack of efficiency with the WLP so I think the FG will be lower than what the recipe generator says, ideally somewhere in the 1.016 - 1.012 range.

Here's the recipe:

Brew Method: All Grain
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.052
Efficiency: 65% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.070
Final Gravity: 1.024
ABV (standard): 6.15%
IBU (tinseth): 135.17
SRM (morey): 7.46

FERMENTABLES:
7 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (43.8%)
8 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (50%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (3.1%)
8 oz - American - Victory (3.1%)

HOPS:
60 min: 1 oz Warrior, 16% AA
20 min: 1 oz each of Nelson Sauvin 12.5% and Mosaic 12%
10 min: 1 oz each of Nelson Sauvin 12.5% and Mosaic 12%
0 min: 1 oz each of Nelson Sauvin 12.5% and Mosaic 12%
Dry hop 10 days: 0.5 oz each of Nelson Sauvin, Mosaic, and Citra
Dry hop 5 days: 0.5 oz each of Nelson Sauvin, Mosaic, and Citra

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 148 F, Time: 90 min, Amount: 6 gal, heat strike water to 161, 2 gal absorbed(ish)
2) Sparge, Temp: 185 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 3.5 gal (is this too small?)
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

YEAST:
White Labs - English Ale Yeast WLP002
Fermentation Temp: 68 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

NOTES:
3L starter (stir plate)
12-14 brix @ 7.5 gallons (1.051 SG)

 

[johnsnownw]

I brewed an ESB with a similar grain bill, using Simcoe and Citra, with that yeast and did not enjoy the outcome. The malt profile was great, but it had a strong aroma of cat piss...which I did not enjoy. So, I would steer clear of citra and simcoe for this recipe.

That said, I have no idea how your hop combo will work...but it sounds interesting.

I think a 3L starter is over-kill, but I haven't run the numbers myself. I read somewhere that 151° actually nets higher attenuation than lower temps...though it seems to be counter to conventional thought. (I haven't tested this myself)

Are you batch sparging?

I ferment that yeast at the lower end 65°, but I ferment at the lower range for most yeasts.

 

[dtwhite]

Thanks. I've found that I'm not sensitive to the "cat piss" smell at all so I'm not to worried about that, but in any case I think Mosaic is a bit more subdued in that regard than Simcoe.

3L is definitely larger than it needs to be, I'm going for a high pitching rate in hopes of keeping the Englishy esters at a reasonable level.

As for the fermentation temp, I don't really have a refrigeration setup and 68 is what I can most likely get with a swamp cooler setup - I suppose I could put some ice in there for the first few days at least.

I was planning on batch sparging, but I'm not particularly good at it yet. That's why I'm not really clear about my sparge volume, but I'm not really sure how else the math works.

 

[johnsnownw]

It's been a while since I batch sparged, but the volume of water is large enough.

I'm not particularly susceptible to cat piss either, and I've used those hops in other brews, but for whatever reason it was extremely strong in the ESB.

Anyway, good luck to you!

 

[RonPopeil]

you're finishing too high. it's most likely from the wlp002. try wlp007 or wlp013. you should try to finish around 1.014

your boil numbers look odd too. you're going into the kettle at 1.052 and coming out at 1.070. i'd expect to hit 1.064 going in the kettle with that SG.

 

[dtwhite]

It's been a while since I batch sparged, but the volume of water is large enough.

I'm not particularly susceptible to cat piss either, and I've used those hops in other brews, but for whatever reason it was extremely strong in the ESB.

Anyway, good luck to you!

Thanks! I'm just going to hope it's not bad, but I'll be the first to say you were right if it turns out the other way.

you're finishing too high. it's most likely from the wlp002. try wlp007 or wlp013. you should try to finish around 1.014

your boil numbers look odd too. you're going into the kettle at 1.052 and coming out at 1.070. i'd expect to hit 1.064 going in the kettle with that SG.

That FG number is from the brewer's friend calculator assuming average attenuation from the WLP002. My understanding is that a healthy pitch rate and lower mash temp will push that attenuation percentage up high enough to get down to 1.014ish. I'll be oxygenating the wort, etc. Plus, the English ale yeast character is something I'm looking for.

The 1.052 thing is just how the math works. 7.5 gallons at 1.052 minus 2 gallons of water boiling out (at 1.0) = 1.070 at 5.5 gallons.

 

[RonPopeil]

Thanks! I'm just going to hope it's not bad, but I'll be the first to say you were right if it turns out the other way.



That FG number is from the brewer's friend calculator assuming average attenuation from the WLP002. My understanding is that a healthy pitch rate and lower mash temp will push that attenuation percentage up high enough to get down to 1.014ish. I'll be oxygenating the wort, etc. Plus, the English ale yeast character is something I'm looking for.

The 1.052 thing is just how the math works. 7.5 gallons at 1.052 minus 2 gallons of water boiling out (at 1.0) = 1.070 at 5.5 gallons.

Proper pitch rate will only get you to the maximum attenuation of that yeast strain. In this case, WLP002 tends to finish most beers in the low 1.020's. That's why it's commonly used in sweet stouts. A low mash will be drier compared to a higher mash but it's not going to change your attenuation by 10%. It will give you .002 to .004 points off your hydro reading depending.

Your limitation is WLP002. If you've already brewed/pitched this then you should consider a simple sugar addition once you hit high krausen (3-5days in the fermenter). This is going to bring your OG and ABV up and slightly drop your IBU's but will also help dry you out and get you to 1.014 ish. Assuming 100% yield (sucrose or brown sugar) you'll most likely need about 8oz. Dissolve the sugar in an equal amount of water by volume.

Or you could just pitch a better attenuating English strain on top of this.

 

[dtwhite]

I'm basing my choice off of articles like this and the fact that Firestone Walker supposedly uses WLP002 as their house strain and gets beers with good attenuation. If you think that's incorrect, can you suggest a different English Ale yeast that will give me better attenuation?

I'm not brewing it for a month or so, just want to plan out in advance- thanks for the help.

 

[RonPopeil]

That recipe uses a step mash at 145/155 which is a bit different and will result in more dryness. That being the case there's a chance that this recipe would dry out well enough. Still sounds wrong though. I was sure I heard that they used wlp013 for their house strain which is a strong attenuator (80% max IIRC). Personally I use wlp007.

 

[dtwhite]

Ah, ok. Thanks

 

[DavidJP]

I wouldn't be too afraid of the WLP002 yeast. I also thought i heard that Firestone used that yeast or at least its the commercial equivalent to what they have.
If you haven't already and want to have something like the Firestone beers I'd recommend listening to the brewing network shows about Firestone beers, there's a whole series of them including one with the chief brewer.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/656

I make a Firestone Pale 31 attempt pretty regularly with WLP002 and it routinely finishes around 1.010 but that as is mentioned is with the step mash with a fairly low temp to begin with. I also use it with a mild with a single infusion at quite a high temp and still seem to finish around there. So try it and see how you get on.

Personally I couldn't hack the high level of bitterness you have in your recipe but I'm guessing thats what you're going for.

 

[dtwhite]

Thanks, I'll check those out. I'm going to try the step mash, I assume that's not particularly more error prone than a single infusion.

And yeah, it's gonna be bitter. I made another IPA that was similarly bitter but replacing the nelson / mosaic with just Amarillo and I liked it, but I always worry it's gonna be too bitter. Really I just want a ton of hop flavor... I guess I could cut down the Warrior a bit.


Revised recipe output:

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: ENM IPA+

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: No Profile Selected
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.052
Efficiency: 65% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.070
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 7.59%
IBU (tinseth): 107.95
SRM (morey): 7.46

FERMENTABLES:
7 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (43.8%)
8 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (50%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (3.1%)
8 oz - American - Victory (3.1%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 16, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 27.22
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 24.73
1 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 25.76
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 14.81
1 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 15.42
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 0 min
1 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 0 min
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
0.5 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
0.5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
0.5 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
0.5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 145 F, Time: 90 min, Amount: 6 gal, heat strike water to 161, 2 gal absorbed(ish)
2) Temperature, Temp: 155 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 6 gal
3) Sparge, Temp: 185 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 3.5 qt
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

YEAST:
White Labs - English Ale Yeast WLP002
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 82%
Flocculation: Very High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 68 F
Fermentation Temp: 68 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

NOTES:
3L starter

12-14 brix @ 7.5 gallons (1.051 SG)