English Best Bitter Recipe Development

[14thstreet]

Advice? I say get the notion of using Fuggles out of your mind, for now, and for your next batch get some temperature control! For under $10 you can improve your beer and in some cases quite dramatically. Temperature control is not important only for liquid yeast but for all yeast.

I've been fermenting on the cool side (64F) for most of my english ales because I've had issues with those that I had no fermentation control, i.e., they probably fermented warmer than 70F. I've found that controling temperature and temperature shifts within the first 72 hours or so of fermentation is necessary and although it may be more work, you owe yourself better beer!

 

[NCBeernut]

The thick mash (recommended for English Ales by both Noonan and Daniels) makes a very big difference to the character of the beer, and the relatively low mash temperature results in a very drinkable beer, as opposed to something that is cloyingly sweet.

Mash temperature affects the amount of dextrins in the wort, which don't really add much at all in the way of sweetness. Mash temperature will affect body more than anything else. I have found this to be true. That said, it does seem that the English like to mash on the lower side for their bitters and mash thick, like you said.

On another note, I also agree about replacing the Fuggles with EKG. I think fuggles are better for the darker beers and EKG give a much nicer aroma/flavor in bitters.

 

[onelegout]

Mash temperature affects the amount of dextrins in the wort, which don't really add much at all in the way of sweetness. Mash temperature will affect body more than anything else. I have found this to be true. That said, it does seem that the English like to mash on the lower side for their bitters and mash thick, like you said.

On another note, I also agree about replacing the Fuggles with EKG. I think fuggles are better for the darker beers and EKG give a much nicer aroma/flavor in bitters.

Not saying that you're wrong at all, but could you provide sources to back up your claim of temperature not affecting sweetness? I've always read that mash temp determines how much fermentable and non fermentable sugar is extracted from the malt.

 

[patto1ro]

The Jamil Show ran a few podcasts that built upon an interview with John Keeling (Head Brewer at Fuller's). What was interesting is that they use a parti-gyle and keep the running separate - basically a high-gravity running and a low-gravity running. They then combine them to create all of their higher production run beers (things like Vintage Ale are a different beast, done as one-off batches).

You can see an example from 1968 of how Fuller's parti-gyle herer:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/05/fullers-party-gyle-from-1968.html

Four different beers - Golden Pride, Export London Pride, London Pride and PA - were brewed from a single mash.

 

[ajf]

Not saying that you're wrong at all, but could you provide sources to back up your claim of temperature not affecting sweetness? I've always read that mash temp determines how much fermentable and non fermentable sugar is extracted from the malt.

I agree with NCBeernut completely, and I should have thought a bit more before posting my previous post.
For a reasonable explanation see http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-5.html
There is a difference in sweetness between a wort mashed at high temperature and one mashed at a lower temperature, but it is not a big difference. There is a much bigger difference in the mouth feel, caused by the increased number of dextrins which are non fermentable, but not particularly sweet.
When I started trying to formulate the ultimate bitter recipe, I mashed at a much higher temperature than I now use, and used about 20% crystal. That combination was cloyingly sweet. Since then, I have reduced both the mash temperature and the amount of crystal, resulting in a brew that is much less sweet, yet has a great mouth feel. I am firmly convinced that the reduction in sweetness is caused primarily by the reduction in the amount of crystal, rather than the reduction in mash temperature.
I still have not achieved the ultimate recipe, but I have got to the point where I much prefer my brews to any of the brews commercially available in Woodbridge.

-a.

 

[StAnthonyB]

How does the mash thickness affect the beer - this is something I've never understood.

I'm also looking forward to reading about this. I've just started getting into the english ales - starting with a mild.

First things first. A thicker mash helps keep the mash pH nice and low. There is less water (with it's higher pH) diluting the low pH grains.

 

[StAnthonyB]

I am firmly convinced that the reduction in sweetness is caused primarily by the reduction in the amount of crystal, rather than the reduction in mash temperature.

+1 on keeping the percentage of crystal low. (~7%)


Crystal when it is malted is malted in the husk to be dextrinous. If my memory serves me, I think it is made at over 160F.

 

[onelegout]

ok cool - my crystal is around 7% of the grist I think.

Urgent question - what temp should I mash at?

 

[onelegout]

nevermind decided to go for 149f or there abouts (55c). disasterous mash in - the pump jammed and for some reason 1.25l/kg was FAR too thick - it was like dough! Something's not right....

 

[jmferris]

nevermind decided to go for 149f or there abouts (55c). disasterous mash in - the pump jammed and for some reason 1.25l/kg was FAR too thick - it was like dough! Something's not right....

Interesting. I have seen the 1.25:1 ratio mentioned before, but usually in U.S. measurements. A rough conversion of qts/lb to l/kg would be something like 1.2L/.45kg. I know you want the mash thicker than that, so maybe try to split the difference?

 

[onelegout]

Yeah I screwed up the measurements but eventually ended up mashing at the equivelant of 1.25qt/lb and it worked fine

My smack pack of wyeast 1275 didn't swell in 3 hours so I pitched it anyway. It took 2 days to start but is now fermenting fine. It smells extremely strongly of sweet black current cordial (ribena for you uk people!) is that normal?

 

[onelegout]

Unfortunately I totally ruined this brew - I'll be re-doing it on 22nd January, and will be spending now until then preparing for it. I've got a new better bottle style fermenter and will make sure that this time I start the brew day early so that I can take my time and get it right.

 

[jfr1111]

What went wrong ? Infection ?

 

[Jaysus]

This is a pretty neat thread... some nice ideas. I always use all EKG in my bitters with a MO base and about 5 or 6% crystal 60L

I have been messing with mash temps, but not thickness.. I will experiment with that next.

 

[onelegout]

Yeah infection and far too high fermentation temps. Hat an argument with my girlfriend while chilling the beer and ended up just transferring and pitching far too soon. Still, Alls good now and I'm hoping to repeat the brew in a week. First though I must work out the best place to keep the fermenter

 

[onelegout]

I repeated this brewday and ended up with a really great beer, pretty much spot on what I was looking for!

 

[Jaysus]

I repeated this brewday and ended up with a really great beer, pretty much spot on what I was looking for!

What recipe/process did you wind up rolling with?

 

[onelegout]

3250g MO Pale malt
200g Crystal 80L malt
70g Crystal 120l malt
50g Chocolate malt

20g EKG 6.8%, 60 mins
40g EKG 6.8%, 15 mins
protofloc @ 15 mins

Wyeast 1968 London ESB yeast

1 week primary @ 18c

1 month in cornelius keg @ 12c

Turned out really nice, lots of fruityness and caramel, would have liked more toast/roasted/biscuit flavours but other than that it was spot on.

 

[SkiNuke]

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but did you ever try the recipe again with the 1275 yeast? I was wondering which you liked best.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Discovered this gem of an old thread. Checking in to see if any of the posters are still around, still making best bitters, lessons learned, last yeast standing, etc. Do share if you can.

 

[bwible]

Some bitters use invert sugar such as Lyle’s Golden Syrup or you can find info how to make invert sugar at home.

You can’t go wrong with Maris Otter or Golden Promise as a base malt. About 5% Crystal malt, as noted in previous posts. Or some recipes call for amber malt. Though its not traditional, I also like to use a little character malt such as Victory malt, light Munich, Biscuit or Aromatic malt. Maybe 2 or 3 %.

Traditional bittering hop choices are Northdown (one of my favorites), Challenger, Target. Kent Goldings is great to use for any or all additions. Fuggle is softer, best for late additions. I discovered First Gold and that is now about my favorite hop for these styles. The last couple I made were all First Gold.

Far as yeast, the 1275 comes off as too clean or neutral for me. I’ve made ribbon Mild Ales with it. Not so much bitter. To me, it’s almost the same as 1056 American Ale yeast. (I’m a Wyeast guy.) I have had great results with 1968. There is a 1768 Cask Ale but I think its a limited release and I have not used it. The other London yeast is 1028, which has too high of an alc tolerance for me for bitter and its better suited to stronger and darker ales like porter. People rave about the 1469, supposedly Timothy Taylor but not really. I’ve not had good luck with that one either. Maybe because I’m not fermenting in a Burton Union system. 1318 is sometimes reported as Boddington’s yeast. I’ve had ok results with that. White Labs has 2 or 3 strains I’d like to try like the WLP025, WLP026 but they are vault strains and the vault never seems to open. “Only 113 more orders til your yeast ships.”

 

[bwible]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/