English Beers always have Tart/twangy Off flavor

[electronjunkie]

Summary: I can make any beer from extract, AG, etc and they taste awesome everytime except when an English yeast is used.

First let me give you a quick brewing background to help rule out most of the usual suspects:

I have brewed about 30 batches of beer. I have done mostly all-grain, though I have made a few extract batches using LME and/or DME.
Here is what I have made successfully so far with 0 (noticeable) infections: American Pale Ales (S-05 using LME/DME), Hefeweissens (WY3068 & WY3638 using AG), Belgian Dubbels (WY1214 using AG), Belgian blondes (WY1214 AG), Belgian Pales (WY1214 AG), American Wheat S-05 and LME (for the wife).

All of these beers came out tasting delicious except my 1st dubbel where I used too much licorice root and coriander. I now know to not spice beer ever unless its after the fact. Some people can do, I won't be doing it again though. Also I know using low temperatures the 1st few days helps keep some of the offtastes below normal thresholds.

As of 4 months ago I have temperature control using a Johnson TC and freezer with the therm sensor taped w/ shipping tape to the fermenter and keg everything. I used to use the ice bath method to keep my fermenter cool the 1st few days. I have fermented in Glass, Plastic Buckets, and Carboys (in the darkest corners of my house). I honestly can't tell a difference.

Now the troubling part. Every time I have made a beer using S-04, WY1968, or Whitbread I get an overpowering tartness. I really have no way to describe it. I have not tasted it in any commercial beers except for Bad Penny brown ale has a slight hint of it (they are a local brewery).

Nut Brown: WY1968
MASH INGREDIENTS
-- 7.5 lbs English Maris Otter
-- 0.25 lbs. Simpsons Chocolate
-- 0.25 lbs. Belgian Special B
-- 0.25 lbs. Belgian Biscuit
-- 0.25 lbs. Briess Special Roast
BOIL ADDITIONS & TIMES
-- 1 oz. Fuggle (60 min)
Fermenter 70*F, 3 weeks
Taste: tart like you wouldn't believe, undrinkable even after 2 months in the keg.

English Bitter: S-04
7lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs. Special Roast Malt
Fermenter 70*F, 3 weeks, no sign of infection
Taste: very very very tart, undrinkable

English Bitter: Whitbread
7lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs. Special Roast Malt
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.80 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 19.7 60 min.
0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 6.3 30 min.
0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 2.1 1 min.

Fermenter 68*F, 2 weeks, no sign of infection
Taste: very tart

English Special Bitter: Whitbread
12lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L
0.4 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs Special Roast Malt
0.5 lb Aromatic Malt
Fermenter 68*F, 4 weeks
Taste: very tart

English Special Bitter: WY1968
12lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L
0.4 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs Special Roast Malt
0.5 lb Aromatic Malt
1.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.90 31.4 60 min.
0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.90 3.5 20 min.
1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.90 3.5 1 min.

Fermenter 65*F, 4 weeks
Taste: tart but drinkable, no discernable malt and very little hops, hidden by tartness

I have tasted many commercial ESBs, Bitters, etc and none have any of this tartness. What is going on here? I am baffled and considering using S-05 for my next attempt.

Is it possible the English yeast want a lower temperature?
Is it the Raleigh city water interacting with the english yeasts somehow?
I sanitize w/ starsan and clean everything w/ oxyclean.

I have had no problems using raleigh city water in other brews, even when they up the chlorine/chloramine to clean the pipes. I can't taste it or any off flavors from it in any of my beers.

Next ESB I plan to use different water.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I don't think it's the water.

English yeasts are known to throw off more esters and phenols than American strains, especially at higher temperatures. Even though your temp control is strapped to the side of your fermentation vessel, the center of the wort-column can get higher than the outsides so you may have been fermenting in the mid-70's at the height of fermentation.

I usually set my fermentation chamber (with probe strapped to the side of the vessel) at ~58-60F to compensate for this.


EDIT: Does the off-flavor remind you of green apples? It's semi-common with my English yeasts. It's from a fermentation-intermediate called acetaldehyde and if you just leave you beer in primary on the yeast cake for the long enough the yeast will clean that up (i.e. complete the fermentation pathway by converting the acetaldehyde into ethanol and CO2.)

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

The lower grav beers like brown ale and ordinary bitter are a bugger, because there is little room for hiding any off flavours. I used to (And occasionally still get) what I think you are describing. I think what finally got me on the right path was to ferment lower, at about 60F for all strains. (I'm talking about ordinary bitter here)

At this moment, I am drinking what I suppose I should call an ESB. Really, it is just my ordinary bitter, same grain bill and hops, but half the water. At around 6-7 ABV, if it had the tartness that you describe, and I used to get.....Well, you'd hardly notice it, but in the ordinary bitter (3.5 ABV) it would be smacking me upside da head.

 

[thegerm]

I had a similar problem with an ordinary bitter that I did recently. I fermented around 64, but my problem was I racked to keg too early for acetaldehyde to be fully cleaned up(after only about 6 days). I would suspect acetaldehyde in your case also, although 3 weeks in primary despite a high fermentation temp would probably clean it up a bit.

try pitching more yeast(properly rehydrate dry yeast, do a good starter for liquid) , more oxygen and lower temps like the previous posters said.

 

[electronjunkie]

Well I will try lower temps, like set the controller to 60*F.

I will also pitch more yeast by doing larger starters.

 

[bierhaus15]

Foremost, s-04 and whitbread are notorious for producing very tart off-flavors at higher temperatures and sometimes, at low ones too. I have stopped using s-04 altogether because of the "whitbread twang" flavor that these yeasts are known to produce.

Regarding wy1968, you need to watch your fermentation temps - keep them on the low side (64F pitch, raise to 68F for ferment, D-rest at 70F and crash cool by day 14 or so). Also, this yeast is known to go from perfectly fine tasting to overcarbonated (in the bottle) and very tart/estery in a matter of weeks. While I am still not sure what causes this, I suspect it has to do either with flocculation issues or infection. I wrote a post about both problems in my blog. Also, check out the British yeast thread for more info, towards the end we discuss these problems too. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

 

[Airborneguy]

How long do you primary for and do you secondary? You might not be allowing the yeast enough time to clean up after itself. English yeasts can be harder to work with, but worth the trouble.

 

[cwheel]

1968 is my house yeast that I use for almost everything - last two beers I brewed with it were an Amber and a Terrapin Rye Pale Ale clone. The Amber I fermented at 73 degrees (prior to my fermentation fridge), and I had some not-so-nice results. Still a drinkable beer, just something "off" with it. The Terrapin clone fermented at 65 degrees, and is absolutely the best beer I've ever brewed. I concur that WY1968 definitely doesn't like to run warm.

 

[electronjunkie]

How long do you primary for and do you secondary? You might not be allowing the yeast enough time to clean up after itself. English yeasts can be harder to work with, but worth the trouble.

No 2ndary, I left the last ESB batch in primary for 5-6 weeks.

The Nut Brown (1st English beer) I left in primary for 3 weeks, kegged it, & it tasted like crap. I took the keg back out and left it sitting in 75*F house. It made little to no difference in flavor. Finally after at least 2 months I put it back in the fridge and tried to drink it. I finally ended up dumping it.

 

[Airborneguy]

Well that's not it then because that's plenty of time.

 

[nediver]

Foremost, s-04 and whitbread are notorious for producing very tart off-flavors at higher temperatures and sometimes, at low ones too. I have stopped using s-04 altogether because of the "whitbread twang" flavor that these yeasts are known to produce.

Regarding wy1968, you need to watch your fermentation temps - keep them on the low side (64F pitch, raise to 68F for ferment, D-rest at 70F and crash cool by day 14 or so). Also, this yeast is known to go from perfectly fine tasting to overcarbonated (in the bottle) and very tart/estery in a matter of weeks. While I am still not sure what causes this, I suspect it has to do either with flocculation issues or infection. I wrote a post about both problems in my blog. Also, check out the British yeast thread for more info, towards the end we discuss these problems too. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/british-yeasts-fermentation-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

I have used this yeast extensively and in my bitters I get an iced tea like component. Not astringent. I like iced tea but not in my beer. My wife doesn't perceive it and her pallet is more refined, but I do. I thought it was the hops Glacier and it turned me off to these. But this thread is making me wonder if it's yeast. I temp control in fridge and conical but this yeast 007 takes off like a rocket and I find if i cool too much it flochs like bricks. Perhaps I need to start cool and deal with longer ferments. That's what attracted me originally was the workhouse power and great flocculation of this strain. I'm also finding I prefer a less dry taste.

 

[electronjunkie]

I set my TC to 59*F and my ESB fermented very cleanly. No off-tastes whatsoever. I used Jamil Z's ESB recipe, but I dry-hopped with EKG.

Its a great beer. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[elproducto]

It's the Special Roast.

http://www.brew-dudes.com/special-roast-malt/387

 

[electronjunkie]

It's the Special Roast.

http://www.brew-dudes.com/special-roast-malt/387

Interesting, but there's no special roast in JZ's ESB.

 

[johngie]

I second the Special Roast.

I've brewed JZ's ordnary and special bitters before and there was a twang/tartness also (both with different yeasts, WY1028 and WLP007).

JZ's Northen English and Southern Browns also have special roast and they too have the tartness but it goes better with those beers.

 

[elproducto]

Interesting, but there's no special roast in JZ's ESB.

You sure about that?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/JamilsESB.htm

I just brewed his ordinary bitter, and it has Special Roast.

 

[johngie]

In BCS, his ESB recipe doesn't have Special Roast. Only the ordinary and special bitters do.
I beleive it's Maris Otter, C120 and aromatic for his ESB now (I'm brewing his ESB this weekend)

Most of his recipes are different in the book then what was posted on Beerdujour.

 

[electronjunkie]

You sure about that?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/JamilsESB.htm

I just brewed his ordinary bitter, and it has Special Roast.

So the recipe on BDJ has special roast. I used the one from Brewing Classic Styles, which has no Special roast. Unfortunately I thought BDJ would be accurate and I would not have to go find my book and flip it open to post the recipe in my OP.

So my 1st post (OP) is wrong about the ESB's I brewed. There is no special roast in them, just crystal malts. When I brewed them, I used the book, no the BDJ recipe.

 

[elproducto]

Ahhh.. my bad.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

I'm finding it pretty fascinating that you guys are having problems with english ales/english ale yeast. I've been acing them out of the ballpark on a regular basis.

I've been extremely successful using Wyeast 1028, making a strong healthy starter, aerating properly, and letting it ferment long and warmish (68F or so). I'm currently fermenting a Ruddles county ale clone with Wyeast 1968 at about 70-72F, intentionally, to get some fruity esters.

I've reused 1028 for 3 generations (tree-branch style) and it's the workhorse in my homebrewery. Ferments quickly (usually 4-5 days), I let it sit 2 weeks (total) in the primary, then I transfer, 2 weeks in the secondary, keg, and serve a week thereafter.

The only one where it took a while to mellow out was a blonde (with Cascade) ale that I made with Wyeast 1056 (not English obviously). That one took a long time for a certain "bite" to disappear.

I'd be happy to share my recipes/processes on that if that helps anyone.

M_C

 

[gladril]

Well, it sounds like the Special Roast might be ruled out in your case, if not all of your recipes used that malt. But I have to say that I recently made a Mild that included Special Roast and found it to be very tart. I'm pretty sure the tartness I'm tasting is from the Special Roast, not the yeast (Nottingham, fermented in the mid sixties). Sourdough is not my thing, usually, and I would have avoided the Special Roast if I'd realized that was the flavor it was imparting.

 

[TheCrackpot]

Sometimes I feel like all I do is drag up dead threads but when I find an interesting one I can't help it.

So I've been freaking out over the past couple months that I have an infection somewhere in my fermenters or brewing equipment. I have 3 brews right now that I am/was afraid are/were infected due to a tart sort of flavor and aroma.

I've been trying like hell to describe it so I can research what the possible cause could be.

The best I've been able to come up with is that it reminds me of a flavor and aroma I have found in Belgian beers. Orval is what comes to mind. Sort of a funky tartness.

One of these 3 brews was a FFF Dreadnaught clone I brewed last spring. I didn't get around to bottling it when I planned and it sat on the primary yeast for a month and a half. It then sat in the secondary for almost 2 months. Brewed in March and bottled in June, this beer probably saw some 80+ degree temps before bottling.

The other 2 beers are IPA's that spent my usual 3 weeks in the primary before bottling. They've been in the bottle for about a month or so.

I had a 12 pack of the Dreadnaught left and I figured I better chill them and drink them up recently.

I've noticed that the funky tartness has dissipated in this beer as well as one of the two younger beers that had it.

It wasn't until tonight, while sipping one of the Dreadnaughts and looking through my brew log, that I noticed that all three beers used the 1968 ESB yeast. I made 2L starters for each one and two of the three fermented in the mid 60s/low 70s.

I've used this yeast 4 times and had the funk tart flavor 3 times.

I feel a lot better knowing that it is more likely the yeast and fermentation temperature as opposed to bad fermenters or equipment. I'm very careful and thorough when it comes to cleaning and sanitation and it's always been a nightmare to have infected gear. Especially if I don't know which piece of gear.

 

[Padalac]

weird because i've used the 1968 with no temp controls and never had a problem with it.. i guess it would have been around 20 degrees C.. although apparently 19 is ideal for this yeast.