Element NOT Responding to PID

[passedpawn]

So I'm looking to get 3 of these Ssr (1 backup) but I can't understand why in the description it says for up to 3500 watts when it's rated for 40 amps and 360 volts. I ask because I'm running 5500 watt elements.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone have a suggestion for relatively cheap elements? I originally bought from auber because I thought they would be of higher quality but I won't make that mistake again.

I recommend Crydom. You can buy them (used?) on ebay. Do a search for D2425 (25 Amp) or D2440 (40 Amp). I've used the 25A version for a couple of years now without any issue (5500W element). If you add a D at the end of the part number, you can find duals ( I use a couple of D2425D).

[edit: typo in D2440 - sorry]

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I couldn't find any of the 40 amp crydom ssr on eBay or through a google search. Sorry but maybe I'm not looking right.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Will the ssr I posted above work for a 5500 watt element? I'm really not having an easy time finding anything else that doesn't ship from china.

 

[shortyjacobs]

So I'm looking to get 3 of these Ssr (1 backup) but I can't understand why in the description it says for up to 3500 watts when it's rated for 40 amps and 360 volts. I ask because I'm running 5500 watt elements.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone have a suggestion for relatively cheap elements? I originally bought from auber because I thought they would be of higher quality but I won't make that mistake again.

I hope it works. It's what I bought that arrives today. Hopefully, if I have time, I can let you know tonight?

It's also the exact same model as the one that currently is "failing" me with overheating and latching closed.

I don't understand the 3500 watt rating either. Relays are rated by volts and amps, not watts....unless I'm an idiot and THIS is why mine isn't working. But I figure it says it's good for up to 360V, and good for 40A, so it should be able to handle my 240V 23A circuit fine.

 

[stevehaun]

I built my system before Auber became the go-to vendor. I bought all my SSRs off of ebay. I also bought crydom D2440 - most were new and some were used. I know I did not pay more than $20 per SSR including shipping. Other reputable brand names include omron, gordos, and opto.

 

[passedpawn]

I couldn't find any of the 40 amp crydom ssr on eBay or through a google search. Sorry but maybe I'm not looking right.

Sorry, typo. Should have said D2440 (not D2540)

Like this, 3 of them for $25: CRYDOM Solid State Relay Model # D2440 ~ 240V ~ 40 Amp ~ LOT OF 3! | eBay

Good Luck.

 

[stlbeer]

I have a used Crydom 40 amp SSR I picked up for $9. I see these are used too. Do you know what the reliability of these are? How much more life can a person expect to get from these?

 

[stevehaun]

CRYDOM Solid State Relay Model # D2440 ~ 240V ~ 40 Amp ~ LOT OF 3! | eBay

CRYDOM SOLID STATE RELAY D2440 40 AMPS / 240 VOLTS AC | eBay

There are a ton of omron SSRs on ebay. You will need to go to the omron website to see what the model number means in terms of the specs for that SSR. Some even come with a heat sink at great prices.

 

[stevehaun]

With a used SSR, it is a total crapshoot as far as how long it will last. I simply bought two for each one in my system. That way, I always have a back up. These are designed for industrial (24/7) use and we brew once or twice a month. Mine haven't failed yet. YMMV. From this board, it would appear that people who are buying the cheap SSRs have frequent failures.

 

[passedpawn]

I have a used Crydom 40 amp SSR I picked up for $9. I see these are used too. Do you know what the reliability of these are? How much more life can a person expect to get from these?

A lot. I picked up used 25A models and have used them for at least 75 10g batches. Just do your best to keep them cool with a decent heat sink.

 

[Bobby_M]

Have you checked that your PID control signals are pulsing on and off as appropriate? Put a volt meter across the control terminals to be sure.

You can also put a volt meter across the two load terminals of the SSR and you should read 240v when the SSR is supposed to be off and 0v when it's on.

You shouldn't be able to test continuity on the load side at all, even with the element connections removed because an SSR (triac) isn't like a physical relay or switch. The tiny DC voltage that gets sent down the line for continuity is too small. That's why I'm suggesting backing up in the circuit and make sure the control voltage is going from 0 to 5 and vice versa.

 

[EarthBound]

You can also put a volt meter across the two load terminals of the SSR and you should read 240v when the SSR is supposed to be off and 0v when it's on.

You need a load to accurately test a SSR, and a voltmeter is not a load.

See the link samc posted.

 

[shortyjacobs]

You need a load to accurately test a SSR, and a voltmeter is not a load.

See the link samc posted.

I believe he was talking about testing with a voltmeter with the element plugged in and the system powered on. The element is the load. With the SSR "off", there should be a 240V voltage drop across the SSR. With the SSR "on", (giving continuity to the circuit and providing very little resistance), the voltage drop across the SSR should be practically 0.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, that's what I meant. But still, I'd be backing up to check for control voltages first and/or trying to pulse the SSR manually with a DC source.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Have you checked that your PID control signals are pulsing on and off as appropriate? Put a volt meter across the control terminals to be sure.

You can also put a volt meter across the two load terminals of the SSR and you should read 240v when the SSR is supposed to be off and 0v when it's on.

You shouldn't be able to test continuity on the load side at all, even with the element connections removed because an SSR (triac) isn't like a physical relay or switch. The tiny DC voltage that gets sent down the line for continuity is too small. That's why I'm suggesting backing up in the circuit and make sure the control voltage is going from 0 to 5 and vice versa.

Thanks for the input. I just tested as you described with the panel live and the element on. Testing the ssr output with a load (element) I had a volt reading of 0 regardless of the Pid input signal. Testing the Pid output it does appear to be functioning correctly with an output reading of 10v when it wants to power the element and 0v when it wants the element off. Testing the input terminals of the ssr shows the same voltage of either 10v or 0v as controlled by the Pid.

So upstream of the ssr I seems to function correct but downstream it is not. I think this test confirms that I have 2 blown ssrs which honestly I think were DOA. The good news is the little red light for the SSRs is functioning correctly and turns on when receiving an input signal from the PID and off when not (yippey!)

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Well I just ordered two new SSRs from this link. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Yes they are cheaper SSRs but I want them now and the only reasonable Crydom SSRs were through ebay with long shipping times compared to $3.99 overnight shipping through amazon for these. They should arrive Saturday. If this turns out to be the solution I'll probably buy some Crydom SSRs off eBay and use the ones I just bought for backups. I hope these work!

 

[gunner65]

You have bad SSRs. They regularly fail closed due to the nature of their design. I use a single SSR and cooked mine on the second run. Found out the hard way that even with a heat sink they cannot handle a vent-less enclosure. I now have a 12vdc fan blowing across my heatsink.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

You have bad SSRs. They regularly fail closed due to the nature of their design. I use a single SSR and cooked mine on the second run. Found out the hard way that even with a heat sink they cannot handle a vent-less enclosure. I now have a 12vdc fan blowing across my heatsink.

It sucks learning the hard way but I guess you remember best when you learn in that fashion. I am rather sure mine did not fry from heat. It's the same size box Kal has for his panel and about the same size heat sink (huge). I think they were just crap ssrs. After they were on for extended periods the heatsink would only get slightly warm and the ssr from what I could feel had little to no heat at all. Oh well.

 

[bf514921]

i did several batches with my ssr on the heatsink in an enclosre, no problem other than there heat threw off my pid teperature reading

 

[EarthBound]

Give me a big enough heatsink and a way to install it, and I will cool the earth.

 

[Stevo2569]

Give me a big enough heatsink and a way to install it, and I will cool the earth.

That is SIG worthy right there

 

[onthekeg]

Especially when it was 52 in southern MN today. At 5pm No complaints here, its just Mother Nature doing her thing.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Especially when it was 52 in southern MN today. At 5pm No complaints here, its just Mother Nature doing her thing.

This is the weirdest freaking winter....

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I got the new Ssrs by ups last night. They are substantially heavier compared to the auber ones and seem to be with a nicer build quality. I just put them in this morning and they work great and my pids now control the elements perfectly. Thanks guys for helping me to fix this. Now I can finally brew some beer with this thing.

 

[EarthBound]

That is SIG worthy right there

Hehe... thanks.

 

[Stevo2569]

I got the new Ssrs by ups last night. They are substantially heavier compared to the auber ones and seem to be with a nicer build quality. I just put them in this morning and they work great and my pids now control the elements perfectly. Thanks guys for helping me to fix this. Now I can finally brew some beer with this thing.

Bigger and better than Auber? What brand are they?

 

[shortyjacobs]

I got the new Ssrs by ups last night. They are substantially heavier compared to the auber ones and seem to be with a nicer build quality. I just put them in this morning and they work great and my pids now control the elements perfectly. Thanks guys for helping me to fix this. Now I can finally brew some beer with this thing.

Awesome. I got mine from Lightobject too, (on Thurs), and just got a chance to fire it up today. All my problems are solved too. Sounds like we just had some bum SSRs.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Bigger and better than Auber? What brand are they?

They are fotek brand which I don't think is the Cadillac of brands but the auber ones seem to have a poor build quality in comparison. They aren't bigger but are heavier more solid and the surface that mounts to the heatsink seems nicer. These are all subjective things but they work and the auber brand ones never did.

Awesome. I got mine from Lightobject too, (on Thurs), and just got a chance to fire it up today. All my problems are solved too. Sounds like we just had some bum SSRs.

Seems to be. I'm going to buy a couple more Ssrs for backup as these seem to be a common source of failure. Glad you got yours running also.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Bigger and better than Auber? What brand are they?

Stevo, here's what Scut_monkey, and myself, got:
Amazon.com: 40A SSR Solid State Relay: Everything Else

Same things as on eBay for $5 a pop, but much faster shipping, (2 day shipping for free if you are a prime member).

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Well tomorrow is the first brewing on my new electric stand. Hopefully the SSRs hold out for me.

I will be brewing Ed Wort's - Bee Cave Robust Porter. I think the recipe looks very good and will be a good seasonal brew. If everything works out well I'll also be brewing Saturday with a Blonde Ale. I wanted to do some quick turn around beers as my pipe line is currently at zero due to my lack of brewing from working on brewing projects only. Wish me luck.