Electrical Safety.

[lazybean]

Is it a code requirement to have conduit between the main panel and subpanel? The distance between the two will be about 10 feet.

It depends. if the cable is concealed in a wall, then Romex should suffice. If it is on the surface, then conduit is needed (in general). With out seeing it, i can not say for sure.

 

[JKoravos]

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code, I was hammered many times about using the "NEC Code Book" as if it were a dirty word from my replies to what I replied on many postings on this forum.
Many of you fellow HBT forum members know it was a dirty the NEC word to you hence why I stopped with any replies and became silent long ago. I now just read about the different build projects. NEMA WP boxes WTF is that when the boxes are butchered up with receptacles sticking thru on posted pictures of the proudly built projects. Call me a dumb ass, I stayed away from dingbat work (residential) with 29 years as commercial mostly (80%) industrial work of 29 years as a IBEW member. VD (not that one), voltage drop with a long runs of 5.5 to 11KW heating elements what's that all about?
SO cord, also add this to the list not in the 310.16 section list as posted above, derated so true. Think about using SOOW cord and done properly? Then the two screw romex connectors installed with the locknut outside the box plus butchered NEMA WP boxes without the proper cords not CGB's in sight and without adding any cord grips on the cords. Mention to your homeowners fire coverage policy if they will pay for a burned down house caused by a illegal wiring practice by the do it yourselfer homebrewer? Screw the NEC CODE BOOK is about what I got as an answer for repling on this forum. I bet being certified for 12KV splicing is beyond many members also that I used for years always had me on demand. Best of luck with your code book replies and again welcome aboard lazybean.

NEC is about standardization, not safety, per se. It's an extremely important and useful document, but following NEC is not required for a safe design, and I'm pretty sure it's not applicable to brew rigs in any capacity (I could be wrong here, though). I'm not saying lots of DIYers don't do unsafe stuff with electricity, they do, but NEC code is not always the answer. Sometimes common sense is just as good (unfortunately, many people don't have common sense when it comes to those pesky little electrons).


EDIT: Also, regarding the insurance comment. My bet is even if your brew rig was wired completely to NEC, you still wouldn't get a payout if it caused a fire.

 

[bakins]

FWIW, my basement finish job was done by the book. I admit my brew-rig is not. My rebuild will actually use DIN mounted breakers and NEMA rated boxes, etc.

 

[BrewBeemer]

NEC is about standardization, not safety, per se.

"NFPA has an Electrical Section that provides particular oppertunity for NFPA members interested in electrical safety to become better informed and to contribute to the development of the National Electrical Code and other NFPA electrical standards".

NFPA 70. This sure sounds like the NEC was designed as a minimum safety standard guideline to me. this reminds me the bickering between labor and management / electricians and engineers, hence why I made another mistake by adding a reply to this forums threads dealing with anything related with electrical. The floors all yours. Cheers bro a biers due with this one.

 

[JKoravos]

"NFPA has an Electrical Section that provides particular oppertunity for NFPA members interested in electrical safety to become better informed and to contribute to the development of the National Electrical Code and other NFPA electrical standards".

NFPA 70. This sure sounds like the NEC was designed as a minimum safety standard guideline to me. this reminds me the bickering between labor and management / electricians and engineers, hence why I made another mistake by adding a reply to this forums threads dealing with anything related with electrical. The floors all yours. Cheers bro a biers due with this one.

Well, it is a safety code, but before there was an NEC people were using the safe practices that were prevalent in their area. NEC standardized the safe practices.

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

 

[CodeRage]

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code, I was hammered many times about using the "NEC Code Book" as if it were a dirty word from my replies to what I replied on many postings on this forum.
Many of you fellow HBT forum members know it was a dirty the NEC word to you hence why I stopped with any replies and became silent long ago.

Hey! who said you could get down? Get back up on your crucifix! j/k

The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass, and every rule seems to have an exception, with an exception to the exception and you have to jump back and forth through the whole damned thing.

My boss pulled out his copy of the Canadian equivalent. Holy cow, information is in one spot, logically arranged, and hardly an asterisk to be found. Screw the national health care, Im moving to canada for the electical code!

 

[Bernie Brewer]

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

Uh, yes it is. Every state and local code starts with the NEC. They may tweak it some, but for the most part, it is the basis for all safe wiring and design. And that is exactly what makes it the "end all be all".

 

[lazybean]

Well, it is a safety code, but before there was an NEC people were using the safe practices that were prevalent in their area. NEC standardized the safe practices.

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

The NEC was first established in 1897, essentially when electricity first went into public use.

I worked with some one on a NEC panel, and had a glimps into what goes on making the rules. It is all about Saftey.

As fore if the NEC applies to home brewer's setups, if any electrical equipment is not UL listed then it must conform to NEC and be built with UL listed components. I know first hand how these rules apply.

Just cause you think some thing your doing is "safe enough" doesn't mean you are smart enough to ignore the one book written for the sole purpose of electrical safety. To come to a place were people are looking for help with electrical installations and try to undermine two professionals trying to help them is just stupid and wrong.

 

[BrewBeemer]

The kicker is different cities and states can demand specs above and beyond the minimum standards set in the NEC code book. This can bite you in the butt trust me I got it once on a dingbat addition for a friend. On the phone "only NEC is needed" on inspection turned down by their special ways of crimping the grounds OUTSIDE THE BOXES (yeah accessible ya think?) then insulated ground wire into the plastic boxes. WTF is this?

 

[CodeRage]

Same old story...

Really not picking at one side or the other.... just the pecker measuring.

 

[lazybean]

Hey! who said you could get down? Get back up on your crucifix! j/k

The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass, and every rule seems to have an exception, with an exception to the exception and you have to jump back and forth through the whole damned thing.

My boss pulled out his copy of the Canadian equivalent. Holy cow, information is in one spot, logically arranged, and hardly an asterisk to be found. Screw the national health care, Im moving to canada for the electical code!

If you have seen the 2008 NEC they have removed 90% of the exceptions. If you compare it to the 1999 code book its like night and day. And yes i have seen the CEC, the biggest differance is they moved Industrial electrical rules to a separate book

 

[bakins]

The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass,

That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... (j/k)

The NEC is not that bad. I found a few "homeowners electrical guidebooks" that arrange the info in a more "logical" way (at least to me) but still refer you to the NEC for specifics.

Most of the stuff we, as brewers, do is pretty common sense.

When in doubt, always put in a breaker/fuse and use a larger guage wire.

(And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite since I admit my rig isn't to code...)

I, for one, actually appreciate the electricians on the board who hassle folks. Even if some of their styles are, well, "rough" We'll argue for pages and pages about the best way to sparge, but not give a second thought to a crappy wiring job.

Mashing on my non-code electric rig right now

 

[JKoravos]

Uh, yes it is. Every state and local code starts with the NEC. They may tweak it some, but for the most part, it is the basis for all safe wiring and design. And that is exactly what makes it the "end all be all".

It's the end all be all for structural wiring. Not all wiring is structural wiring. Is your oven or computer wired to be compliant with NEC code? Any brew rig, by definition, is not in compliance with NEC unless it is UL/CSA/etc. approved.

 

[OLDBREW]

electrical appliance manufacturers have nema codes they must go by, just like we have the NEC for building wiring.

This IMHO all came about by insurance companies not liking to payout claims. They lobbied to have stringent codes and enforcement in the building industries.

Electrical Fire protection and Electrical Safety for the consumer is what the insurance companies are trying to avoid paying money out on so the fire protection and electrical codes changes as they see where they are paying out the most money in claims.

 

[rico567]

That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... (j/k)

The NEC is not that bad. I found a few "homeowners electrical guidebooks" that arrange the info in a more "logical" way (at least to me) but still refer you to the NEC for specifics.

Most of the stuff we, as brewers, do is pretty common sense.

When in doubt, always put in a breaker/fuse and use a larger guage wire.

(And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite since I admit my rig isn't to code...)

I, for one, actually appreciate the electricians on the board who hassle folks. Even if some of their styles are, well, "rough" We'll argue for pages and pages about the best way to sparge, but not give a second thought to a crappy wiring job.

Mashing on my non-code electric rig right now

I think somebody's style is, "well, rough," when they say something like: "That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... "

That's an unnecessary generalization if I ever heard one, the kind that (unfortunately) the anonymity of the Internet tends to breed.
I've certainly read some opinionated posts in this thread, but at least they stem from somebody's personal opinion and (claimed) experiences, not from an unfounded stereotype like a mystical organization of electrical wizards = union. There's nothing mystical about learning to do electrical work: 110/220 don't discriminate.

N.B.:

1. I am not a union member.

2. I learned how to wire to code (residential stuff, at least) from various sources, including reading, consulting with real electricians & nice color pictures on various Internet sites. It all may not be pretty, but I believe it's within code, and safe.

 

[wilserbrewer]

rico...j/k means just kidding...

 

[BrewBeemer]

See why me being a slow learner I still haven't learned to be silent now just read this forum without adding comments in regard to electrical? Well slipped up on this thread with replies. More fun reading material not to look down on others that are not in the trade just that some are set in their ways be it wrong. Just be safe. An inspector can be a prick and about failing even a clean and legal installation if they wanted. How you come off to them on a job site makes a total difference. I had a couple floors of a commercial build the final signed off before the Tee bar for fixtures was even installed. He knew our company and the quality of work over the years. Screw them once your in trouble.

 

[passedpawn]

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code...

that is a sad story

 

[CodeRage]

See why me being a slow learner I still learned to became silent and now just read this forum without adding comments in regard to electrical? Well slipped up on this thread with replies. More fun reading material not to look down on others that are not in the trade just that some are set in their ways be it wrong. Just be safe. An inspector can be a prick and about failing even a clean and legal installation if they wanted. How you come off to them on a job site makes a total difference. I had a couple floors of a commercial build the final signed off before the Tee bar for fixtures was even installed. He knew our company and the quality of work over the years. Screw them once your in trouble.

I was just playing with you man. Im sure you know that though.
I've seen people with an NEC book open and argue about the right way to do something according to the NEC. They were both using the book too. My point is even if you are familiar with NEC a point can be argued by two very experienced people. Know what I mean?

We're a 508 panel shop and so I am familiar with the 'appliance' aspect. It's funny though, as soon as a contractor hangs our enclosure and punches a hole in it for conduit the enclosure looses its UL rating. Kind of stupid if you ask me but, at least they know it was built to 508 standards...

As for union/non union. I've met good and bad electricians from both camps, it really depends on the person. Either way, if you have questions consult with some one. For residential wiring, talk to a master electrician who does a lot of residential work. For control panels and appliances, well ask away and use your best judgement.

Like dad always said, an ounce of precaution can save you a pound in the ass.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Just like in law it's the interpretation of the code book.

 

[bakins]

not from an unfounded stereotype like a mystical organization of electrical wizards = union.

Dude, chill. j/k means just kidding. Ie, it was said in jest. FWIW, I'm an a-hole in real-life too - being pseudo-anonymous has nothing to do with my level of sarcasm - ask my friends and my wife

And if you actually read my post, I was defending those electricians on the board who correct us from time to time. I actually like BrewBeemer (at least from what I've seen on the list).

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Just like in law it's the interpretation of the code book.

And just like in law the only person whose interpretation really counts is the AHJ. In other words, the electrical inspector.

 

[lazybean]

Edited first post. about heater elements needing individual protection per UL.

 

[Nova5]

Edited first post. about heater elements needing individual protection per UL.

A dual breaker is individual protection if I remember the way its done properly.

UL is just a private entity so their "rules" are purely recommendations.

 

[BrewBeemer]

And just like in law the only person whose interpretation really counts is the AHJ. In other words, the electrical inspector.

Ya got that right as cities can have their codes higher and tighter than the NEC Code book as the NEC Code book sets the "Minimum Safety Standards".
Piss off your inspector on the job site he can about shut you down or delay the project costing the contractor time and money. Been there done that in the past. Best part on one high rise I had 3 floors that had a "Final Signed Off For Electrical" before a single stick of "Tee Bar" was installed with fixtures still on pallets in boxes. This inspector knew our company and employes for years and trusted our work quality. Of course we had "Friday Safety Meetings" and after hours our inspector would show up and join our bier parties. Work hard then play and party hard.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

A dual breaker is individual protection if I remember the way its done properly.

UL is just a private entity so their "rules" are purely recommendations.

Can anyone corroborate this?

 

[Homercidal]

When I had my garage built, I believe the Electrical Inspector said that as long as the garage was at or above grade, then I did not need GFCI Outlets.

So far I have only two outlets and they are both GFCI Protected. I'll likely wire the whole thing GFCI for safety, but I swear he said only if below grade was it required. Which is funny because I thought as long as you were on a concrete slab you needed it.

Anyway, I'm all about safety, except that one outlet by the bench that I wired in a hurry to get a light installed. That one is not yet GFCI.

I even buried the wire twice the depth to the garage, and placed it in Conduit to boot.

 

[evanmars]

The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. In this sense, it is different from the CE Marking or the FCC Part 15 requirements for electronic devices, which are required by law. In practice, however, it may be extremely difficult to sell certain types of products without a UL Mark. Large distributors may be unwilling to carry a product without UL certification, and the use of noncertified equipment may invalidate insurance coverage. It is common practice in many fields to specify UL Listed equipment or UL Recognized materials. Local jurisdictional authorities, such as building, electrical and fire inspectors, may be reluctant to accept a product for installation in a building unless it carries a recognized third-party compliance mark such as the UL Mark

 

[McKBrew]

Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.

 

[BrewBeemer]

A dual breaker is individual protection if I remember the way its done properly.

That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?

The best one was a friend that removed a single breaker and installed two wafer breakers on the same leg, his brewing heating times were way too slow. This I corrected by relocating the breakers to two legs vs one leg for 240 vs 120 volt plus added a bridge to the breakers, again a DIY person just not knowing.

Worse is people pulling off a unused old range receptacle then splitting it off for two 120 volt circuits with #14 or #12 wire thinking 15 or 20 amps they're protected without down sizing the breaker. Check your homeowners fire insurance policy if they will cover you after the fire marshals final fire report findings. Don't know, just ask as the right and safe installation is the safe way.