Electrical Safety.

[cyberbackpacker]

That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?

So a factory two pole, 50a GFCI breaker would then satisfy this?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.

My daughter at 16 a had to have one "special model hair dryer", she got it we pitched in at $134, two weeks later up in smoke spitting parks and stink before the bathroom GFI tripped. Yes the GFI will trip with just my Fluke 87 meter voltage testing hot to ground.

Costco has a Crescent brand (since 1907) 211 piece tool set, kind of handy for my son in college to have away from home. Small print, assembled in Taiwan, pliers and wrenches made in China. Another American brand name gone. Hein Werner floor jacks are back but this time not the made in USA like the past 80 years but made in China. Don't chew on the paint.

 

[Nova5]

When I had my garage built, I believe the Electrical Inspector said that as long as the garage was at or above grade, then I did not need GFCI Outlets.

So far I have only two outlets and they are both GFCI Protected. I'll likely wire the whole thing GFCI for safety, but I swear he said only if below grade was it required. Which is funny because I thought as long as you were on a concrete slab you needed it.

Anyway, I'm all about safety, except that one outlet by the bench that I wired in a hurry to get a light installed. That one is not yet GFCI.

I even buried the wire twice the depth to the garage, and placed it in Conduit to boot.

Significantly above grade probably won't need it but near grade or lower certiantly does due to water risks from rain. But why quibble over 13 bucks? put one in and be done with it.

To wire an entire circuit for GFCI protection just locate the first outlet in the chain, make it a GFCI, hook the Hot/Inbound wire to the LINE side, outbound wire to the LOAD side. Everything after the GFCI is now protected by the GFCI.

 

[BrewBeemer]

So a factory two pole, 50a GFCI breaker would then satisfy this?

A 2 pole GFI breaker at the panel is not a cheap item that's one fact I know but again I got them off the contractors for free yeara ago. A hot tub GFI would cost less but your protected.

 

[Nova5]

Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.

I used a bunch of cheap GFCI's at one point and to many started breaking down and not working right. I went back and replaced them in ALL houses I had installed them in at my cost with what I had used before. I wasn't going to take the chance of something serious happening. Customers were very happy we took such a stance.

That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?

The best one was a friend that removed a single breaker and installed two wafer breakers on the same leg, his brewing heating times were way too slow. This I corrected by relocating the breakers to two legs vs one leg for 240 vs 120 volt plus added a bridge to the breakers, again a DIY person just not knowing.

Worse is people pulling off a unused old range receptacle then splitting it off for two 120 volt circuits with #14 or #12 wire thinking 15 or 20 amps they're protected without down sizing the breaker. Check your homeowners fire insurance policy if they will cover you after the fire marshals final fire report findings. Don't know, just ask as the right and safe installation is the safe way.

Yes a Dual/Double/Joined breaker that has the factory installed bar on its switches is what I mean. each breaker in that unit handles 1 of the wires.

You can get away with the stove outlet trick of usability but both legs are at the 50amp capacity, so you can easily overdraw the circuit. Replace the 50amp double with a pair of 15 or 20amp singles and you are "okay" but not great. Not wise to run two separate circuits down the same wire, damn near stupid IMO. You can certainly underamp a wire. use a 8ga wire for 15amps(14ga normally). Its just silly but its safe. If you are repurposing the pre-installed wire, thats fine. Never Overamp, but you can always Underamp.

The breakers in a Dual breaker are electrically independent, and only joined mechanically so that if one or the other detects an overload the entire unit is shut off.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

A 2 pole GFI breaker at the panel is not a cheap item that's one fact I know but again I got them off the contractors for free yeara ago. A hot tub GFI would cost less but your protected.

I know they are not cheap, but I do have one and was able to pick it up at a fair price.

But back to the original question, would one of these satisfy the individual protection for a heater element?

 

[BrewBeemer]

I know they are not cheap, but I do have one and was able to pick it up at a fair price.

But back to the original question, would one of these satisfy the individual protection for a heater element?

Sounds like your using a 240 volt heating element on 240 volts, in that case your fully protected with a factory two pole breaker or two single pole breakers with a bridge across both breakers. Plus if using a 50 amp 2 pole GFI your element, you and your equipments protected. be sure to add grounding jumpers on all your equipment and bond togethe. Overkill is better than being ungrounded and killed around wet areas by a long shock. We don't need a Dirt Nap.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I used a bunch of cheap GFCI's at one point and to many started breaking down and not working right. I went back and replaced them in ALL houses I had installed them in at my cost with what I had used before. I wasn't going to take the chance of something serious happening. Customers were very happy we took such a stanc

Not wise to run two separate circuits down the same wire, damn near stupid IMO.[/QUOTE]

What are you thinking here I must ask? With two separate legs you have two separate 120 volt circuits that are safe provided the breakers are down sized to the wire gauge used after the old range wire as well separated from each other by this not bridging the two breakers. By the time you have a neutral and ground in the circuits it would be better to stop pissing around and just run two new separate circuits and blank off the old range receptacle, disconnect at the panel and use the old breaker space for the new lower amp breakers.

You can't go wrong using Leviton brand switches and receptacles. A 20 amp receptacle on a 20 amp breaker not a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp breaker. I see this all the time with high wattage microwaves or portable heaters in houses and kitchens that fail over time.

There's a reason why I stayed away from "dingbat" work plus the wife does not offer my services to people asking, only very close and special friends is bad enough. In my city houses are from the 1800's thru the 1930's, 80% of them have rats nest fire hazard packed panels by DIY home owners down to 16 gauge zip cord wrapped to knob & tube runs under the house or attic.
Switch the neutral in old houses is the real surprise in houses of the 1910 era, I have a 1905 and 1913 rental house. Total rewiring required in both plus panel amperage upgrades.

 

[passedpawn]

The breakers in a Dual breaker are electrically independent, and only joined mechanically so that if one or the other detects an overload the entire unit is shut off.

I doubt this is true for GFI breakers, which was the topic.

 

[passedpawn]

Don't chew on the paint.

We don't need a Dirt Nap.

Damn, Beemer, you're killing me today!

 

[lazybean]

UL is just a private entity so their "rules" are purely recommendations.

UL listing IS usually required by the AHJ and in some cases required by the NEC. I know it is here. Also it is often required by fire insurance policies, and they can void a claim by proving a item was not UL listed.

Our AHJ also has a provision that Equipment built to NEC code with UL listed parts shall be acceptable. this would be the case most Brew rigs, except for the DIY Heat sticks which are obviously not UL listed. since those cost a lot more.

As for "individual protection". When you have a 50a CB feeding 3 heaters each rated at 12a, you need to add a Fuse or CB rated at 15a to each heater phase. This is a standard way of building industrial control panels. We also usually place the fuses before the switching device (SSR in most brew rigs) So that if it shorts, the fuses will protect it also.

 

[lazybean]

I doubt this is true for GFI breakers, which was the topic.

if the breaker is rated 240v (which is why it would be a 2 pole) it has to be mechanically joined. I think your confused by the fact that most GFCI two pole breakers only have one handle. typical 2pole breakers are made by taking (2) single pole breakers, riveting the 2 cases together and bridging the handels, this meets code and is cheap. This is impossable to do with GFCI or any type of sensing breakers. they have internal components that need to be connected, so they have to have a case made specificly for 2 or 3 poles. This also means they can use 1 handle on the outside to open/close the multiple poles internally.

 

[passedpawn]

typical 2pole breakers are made by taking (2) single pole breakers, riveting the 2 cases together and bridging the handels, this meets code and is cheap. This is impossable to do with GFCI or any type of sensing breakers. they have internal components that need to be connected, so they have to have a case made specificly for 2 or 3 poles.

Uh, so I think we are in agreement, as this is what I was said in far less words.

 

[lazybean]

Uh, so I think we are in agreement, as this is what I was said in far less words.

Now that i re-read your post, We are saying the exact same thing. sorry.