Electric Element in Kettle Build - Wiring question

[euric228]

Hello,

I've begun assembling parts and figuring out how I'd like to setup a simple electric heating element in my kettle.

I have the following:
-5500W electric element
-An SCR to control the power of the element
-Levitron L6-30R receptacle to connect to the heating element plug

Have not purchased any wire yet but will be getting some 10 gauge for wiring from the outlet to the SCR, and the SCR into the L6-30R.

My question is pertaining to the ground wire. The SCR has no ground terminal, so should I run a separate ground wire from the outlet to the element receptacle? Here's a mockup of this wiring https://imgur.com/a/SKIIm8r

Or is just grounding the kettle itself an option? I am in an unfinished basement, not sure if its easy to ground it off in this case.


Anything else I'm missing here? I do have a GFCI breaker connected to the outlet i'm using.

Thanks!

 

[processhead]

Hello,

I've begun assembling parts and figuring out how I'd like to setup a simple electric heating element in my kettle.

I have the following:
-5500W electric element
-An SCR to control the power of the element
-Levitron L6-30R receptacle to connect to the heating element plug

Have not purchased any wire yet but will be getting some 10 gauge for wiring from the outlet to the SCR, and the SCR into the L6-30R.

My question is pertaining to the ground wire. The SCR has no ground terminal, so should I run a separate ground wire from the outlet to the element receptacle? Here's a mockup of this wiring https://imgur.com/a/SKIIm8r

Or is just grounding the kettle itself an option? I am in an unfinished basement, not sure if its easy to ground it off in this case.


Anything else I'm missing here? I do have a GFCI breaker connected to the outlet i'm using.

Thanks!

Because you are dealing with wet processes and electric power, you need a 220 volt GFCI in your design.

For safety, you want the ground conductor to connect to your kettle through the metal case of the heating element.

You mention that you are using an SCR for a control device. SCRs are typically used in DC control applications. Did you mean an SSR? If so, there are some problems with your diagram.

 

[euric228]

Because you are dealing with wet processes and electric power, you need a 220 volt GFCI in your design.

For safety, you want the ground conductor to connect to your kettle through the metal case of the heating element.

You mention that you are using an SCR for a control device. SCRs are typically used in DC control applications. Did you mean an SSR? If so, there are some problems with your diagram.

Hi there, yes I do have a GFCI breaker in line with the outlet i'm using the heating element with.

I did purchase an SCR, I tried linking it in my OP but i guess amazon links aren't allowed. If you search for 'Dimmer Switch,10000W SCR Digital Voltage Regulator Speed Control Dimmer Thermostat AC 220V 80A' on amazon you will find it. The description says it will work with AC

I've realized now for wiring the ground that I will pigtail it at the SCR and then have it continue on with the two hots from SCR to the heating element...Does that make sense?

Thanks

 

[processhead]

Yes, it appears this controller would work with a heating element. I see this is a complete system and not just a single discrete SCR.
For the price, you can't really go wrong. I will be interested to see how it works out for you.

https://www.amazon.com/Controller-A...t+AC+220V+80A&qid=1566660296&s=gateway&sr=8-2

 

[Bobby_M]

The ground needs connectivity between the main panel and the kettle and also needs to lug into the box the SCR is in, if that box is metal. If your element install method doesn't provide a ground (it should) then you'll need to get a secure connection to the kettle in another way.

 

[golfindia]

Yes, it appears this controller would work with a heating element. I see this is a complete system and not just a single discrete SCR.
For the price, you can't really go wrong. I will be interested to see how it works out for you.

https://www.amazon.com/Controller-Adjustable-Regulator-Thermostat-Soldering/dp/B07V1NYD64/ref=sr_1_2?keywords='Dimmer+Switch,10000W+SCR+Digital+Voltage+Regulator+Speed+Control+Dimmer+Thermostat+AC+220V+80A&qid=1566660296&s=gateway&sr=8-2

A 10000W SCR for $14.99.

Added a few extra zeros when they translated it from chinese....

 

[processhead]

I may be dating myself but personally, I much prefer the speed and convenience of a power controller with a knob vs. up-down push-buttons, but that's just me. I think there are similar controllers to this one that have knob controls.

I am tempted to buy one of these to play with and disassemble. Somehow I have doubts that anything that is physically this small can handle the amount of current it claims to be rated for.

The screw terminals alone don't appear large enough to handle the size of wires required to handle the rated current. No customer feedback ratings on this product yet, on Amazon anyway.

 

[processhead]

Also, the 10,000 watt rating at 220 volts and 80 amps does not compute based on ohms law. Closer to 45 amps max current rating.

 

[bgmac]

I agree, this controller looks too small and simple to handle 5500 watts. I run 4400 watts through a SSR controlled by a PID with a dial that can be set for temp/mash (temp probe feedback controlled) or percentage/boil and it does generate heat. Plus where is the 220V/240V cut out switch for safety? Also, this unit is not grounded. A GFCI breaker should handle a short/ground since both legs are hot and neutral alternating but grounding is another safety measure.

But hey, if you try it and it works then good for you. That is way cheaper then building a typical element controller. Maybe have some electrical safety gloves handy and a rubber mat to stand on the first time or every time. The 10,000 watt claim at 220V makes me skeptical. 80 AMPS would be like 17,600 watts so something is off.

 

[processhead]

Many of Amazon's imported products have glaring errors and inconsistencies in their specifications. Nothing new there, and an ongoing gripe of mine.

This is a real problem when you are trying to select products to design/build/integrate a system that actually works.

As I see it, the real problem with this product is not the simplicity. The functionality of manual PWM controls is pretty well established and custom semiconductors and u-processors can make the basic design simple. The scalability of the current handling capacity is a just a function of the current pass element and heat sink size along with the associated field connections. The last part is where I think this product probably falls down.

The problem is how they execute the design without consideration to real-world limitations, unrealistic or erroneous specifications, or absence of basic safety features.

Does anyone really think you can control your electric range with one of these?

 

[golfindia]

Does anyone really think you can control your electric range with one of these?

"It can be used as power supply for large electrical devices of less than 10000W, enough for household appliances or for small factory."

If it can power small factories, I'd say controlling a brew pot should be fine.

 

[processhead]

"It can be used as power supply for large electrical devices of less than 10000W, enough for household appliances or for small factory."

If it can power small factories, I'd say controlling a brew pot should be fine.

Yes, I find it comforting to know I can run an entire factory off of one of these little $14 modules.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, it appears this controller would work with a heating element. I see this is a complete system and not just a single discrete SCR.
For the price, you can't really go wrong. I will be interested to see how it works out for you.

https://www.amazon.com/Controller-Adjustable-Regulator-Thermostat-Soldering/dp/B07V1NYD64/ref=sr_1_2?keywords='Dimmer+Switch,10000W+SCR+Digital+Voltage+Regulator+Speed+Control+Dimmer+Thermostat+AC+220V+80A&qid=1566660296&s=gateway&sr=8-2

ive read here that this does not function as well with our 60hz power vs 50hz I am not sure how true that is . Alsoi ive seen many reports of the current burning the solder traced on the pcb boards with loads as little as 5500w so I think Golfindia might be right on this one by saying they added extra zeros

about 5 years or so there was a thread on using these and pics of the common failures people were having.. there was a fuse on some models and the connection points burned up bad on the board. while they worked in the short term the concensus was they dont hold up to extended lengths of use. Of course it is possible (and likely actually) they have improved the design so I will be interested to know how this works for you.

basically the exact same failure that happened on a lot of robobrew systems that used these types of low cost scr setups happened to these. it looked like these photos. (I even commented on it there)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/robobrew-circuit-board-cooked.665854/

 

[augiedoggy]

"It can be used as power supply for large electrical devices of less than 10000W, enough for household appliances or for small factory."

If it can power small factories, I'd say controlling a brew pot should be fine.

see above post.

 

[bgmac]

Using a properly rated SSR doesn't have to be complicated. Check out Auber Instruments. You can pick up a nice pre-programmed PID like their EZ boil for like $46. SSRs with heat sink are cheap, like $15 or less. Probably the most expensive piece is ensuring you have 240v GFCI breaker or inline GFCI on the power cord which you would need with this device anyway. Your enclosure doesn't have to be a fancy Stainless steel cabinet. I used an old tool box I had laying around the garage. It even has holes cut on both ends with a computer fan blowing on the SSR. Never gets above 90F.

 

[bgmac]

Using a properly rated SSR doesn't have to be complicated. Check out Auber Instruments. You can pick up a nice pre-programmed PID like their EZ boil for like $46. SSRs with heat sink are cheap, like $15 or less. Probably the most expensive piece is ensuring you have 240v GFCI breaker or inline GFCI on the power cord which you would need with this device anyway. Your enclosure doesn't have to be a fancy Stainless steel cabinet. I used an old tool box I had laying around the garage. It even has holes cut on both ends with a computer fan blowing on the SSR. SSR never gets above 90F.

View attachment 642118 View attachment 642119

 

[augiedoggy]

Using a properly rated SSR doesn't have to be complicated. Check out Auber Instruments. You can pick up a nice pre-programmed PID like their EZ boil for like $46. SSRs with heat sink are cheap, like $15 or less. Probably the most expensive piece is ensuring you have 240v GFCI breaker or inline GFCI on the power cord which you would need with this device anyway. Your enclosure doesn't have to be a fancy Stainless steel cabinet. I used an old tool box I had laying around the garage. It even has holes cut on both ends with a computer fan blowing on the SSR. Never gets above 90F.

View attachment 642118 View attachment 642119

If the op wants pid control he can do it reliably for a lot less actually..

a mypin td4 with manual boil control mode is $36 including shipping (Do not use the ssr that came with it the knock off foteks are a crapshoot and have a high failure rate)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MYPIN-Univ...734219&hash=item2880677e99:g:mpsAAOSwARpdHML9


a ssr heatsink is $2.25 shipped(these are fine for a 23a load)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-40A-Al...864561?hash=item26220a67f1:g:82YAAOSwlCFdLhiW

this ssr is from the same manufacturer as auber uses $4
https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-480V-AC...664536&hash=item288130d790:g:lPAAAOSwlPhdLTFH

here is a good quality rtd with the better quality cable like I have been using for years $16 with shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Detachable-Temperature-Sensors-RTD-PT100-1-2-NPT-with-Telfon-Cable-Connector/172098915583?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item2811e50cff:g:HZYAAOSwgKBaxe99&enc=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&checksum=172098915583b6359511f19845a4b186daa239591291

all together its under $60 total...

I upgraded the old panel in my avatar pic with an ezboil and they are nice, but I personally found the menu system to be more complicated than I felt was worth so I ended up not using the features half the time YMMV. it does do an excellent job of achieving temp and controlling it without overshoot without needing to spend the 15 minutes to do an autotune when you first set it up.

The TD4 is super simple to use you just hold a button down for 3 seconds to switch from manual boil control power level mode to pid mode.

 

[bgmac]

If the op wants pid control he can do it reliably for a lot less actually..

a mypin td4 with manual boil control mode is $36 including shipping (Do not use the ssr that came with it the knock off foteks are a crapshoot and have a high failure rate)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MYPIN-Univ...734219&hash=item2880677e99:g:mpsAAOSwARpdHML9


a ssr heatsink is $2.25 shipped(these are fine for a 23a load)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-40A-Al...864561?hash=item26220a67f1:g:82YAAOSwlCFdLhiW

this ssr is from the same manufacturer as auber uses $4
https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-480V-AC...664536&hash=item288130d790:g:lPAAAOSwlPhdLTFH

here is a good quality rtd with the better quality cable like I have been using for years $16 with shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Detachable-Temperature-Sensors-RTD-PT100-1-2-NPT-with-Telfon-Cable-Connector/172098915583?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item2811e50cff:g:HZYAAOSwgKBaxe99&enc=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&checksum=172098915583b6359511f19845a4b186daa239591291

all together its under $60 total...

I upgraded the old panel in my avatar pic with an ezboil and they are nice, but I personally found the menu system to be more complicated than I felt was worth so I ended up not using the features half the time YMMV. it does do an excellent job of achieving temp and controlling it without overshoot without needing to spend the 15 minutes to do an autotune when you first set it up.

The TD4 is super simple to use you just hold a button down for 3 seconds to switch from manual boil control power level mode to pid mode.

That's my point, for not much more someone can build a nice PID controlled SSR for a decent price. Just takes a little skill hooking it all together. I would rather spend a few dollars more on a proven set up such as we both listed then trust the SCR thats probably going to burn out after a few brews or worse.

I chose the EZBoil for the dial and the possibility of setting up timed step mashing if I want. I agree that rolling through the menu can be a bit of a PITA. Since I have only been using it for single step mash, then switch to boil mode, I have found it works exactly as I need it. I actually stopped by the Auber Instruments office two weeks ago and picked up a fermentation controller that measures the wort temp and the ambient temp and keeps the refrigeration/heater system from over overshooting and undershooting desired temp. A bit of a complicated menu also but it all makes since when wrapping your brain around wort temp to ambient temp with super tight control.