Electric burners - Any builders out there?

[bruin_ale]

Okay, typo on the 40A - but 30A is good. So basically you just need to replace the panel with a 100A subpanel, put the new 240V breaker in there and done. Course, if you want to spend the money on laying new wire - don't do what the last guy did - go big, 6 gauge.

 

[Walker]

fyi: your main panel is from the manufacturer Square D. You have to buy a breaker that matches the panel. Square D makes two kinds. Snap-on and Bolt-on.

I took a look at ebay and found two 30A 2-pole GFCI breaker for about $35 (one of each type). That's a pretty good deal. They are over $100 if you walk into a store and buy one off the shelf.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-Single-Pole-30A-GFI-GFCI-Breaker-/310298072257?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item483f34d4c1

http://compare.ebay.com/like/270332223361?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=214576778932&crlp=1_263602_304662&UA=WXF%3F&GUID=b9efa43212d0a0aa17965196fef28289&itemid=270332223361&ff4=263602_304662

edit: yours *appears* to be the snap-on kind (the first link)

 

[bruin_ale]

first one is a 120V single pole... not double pole

 

[CidahMastah]

So you are saying that, with the 10gauge line I have I could get a dual pole 30amp breaker for the main panel. From that, keep the 10g wire in and replace only the subpanel with a 100Amp subpanel. In that subpanel I would keep my current circuits (20, 15, 15) breaker set up and add a 30 amp GFI breaker, so that 30 amp breaker on the main panel would be split into 4 circuits (20,15,15,30)? On the 30 amp GFI breaker I would wire up a 240 outlet?

don't do what the last guy did - go big, 6 gauge

Absolutely. If I am retrenching that line, it is going to go in PVC conduit style and will be 6 gauge. I hate fixing things twice, do it right once.

 

[Walker]

first one is a 120V single pole... not double pole

Whoops!

That brings up an interesting point. I mentioned earlier that I had never seen a double-wide breaker that was not dual-pole. And now I have.

So... it is possible that the 20A breaker in the main that feeds out to the garage is only a single pole breaker.

CidahMastah.... is the cable that is buried under the ground a 4 wire cable? That's critical here.

So you are saying that, with the 10gauge line I have I could get a dual pole 30amp breaker for the main panel.

I would check with an electrician to make sure that the ampacity rating of the 10AWG wire, when buried under the ground, is still 30A first. There are several things that factor into the max amp load of a wire.

- metal type
- wire gauge
- insulation used on the wire
- wire length
- "form" (single wire, multi conductor cable, in open air vs inside of conduit)

SO, don't just assume that 10AWG wire can handle 30A in all situations. I'd love to offer you a specific answer, but I am an electrical engineer and not an electrician, and these kinds of things are not taught in school for an engineer. An electrician will be able to answer with more authority on those kinds of things.

From that, keep the 10g wire in and replace only the subpanel with a 100Amp subpanel. In that subpanel I would keep my current circuits (20, 15, 15) breaker set up and add a 30 amp GFI breaker, so that 30 amp breaker on the main panel would be split into 4 circuits (20,15,15,30)? On the 30 amp GFI breaker I would wire up a 240 outlet?

That's one option. The other would be to put the GFCI breaker in the main pabel instead of the subpanel. That would protect everything in the garage at the same time.

As I mentioned, GFCI breakers can get expensive and you'll have to shop around for a deal. So, it might be in your wallet's best interest to get your subpanel first and then decide (based on what kind of deal you can find on the GFCI breaker) whether you want to put the GFCI in the main panel or in the subpanel.

 

[CidahMastah]

CidahMastah.... is the cable that is buried under the ground a 4 wire cable? That's critical here.

The cable is about 1 inch wide x 1/4'' (and rectangular). I took the panel face off to look at it, but now I can't recall if I saw only two lines running from that breaker or 4. Will have to look.

I would check with an electrician to make sure that the ampacity rating of the 10AWG wire, when buried under the ground, is still 30A first.

I have an email out to my bro in law. This morning about this.

SO, don't just assume that 10AWG wire can handle 30A in all situations.

so no faking it until we make it? ha

I'd love to offer you a specific answer, but I am an electrical engineer and not an electrician, and these kinds of things are not taught in school for an engineer. An electrician will be able to answer with more authority on those kinds of things.

I appreciate your honesty. Too many people are the "trust me dude" it will probably work type. Being an engineer, you are likely detail oriented which helps keep you alive when toying with electricity.

The other would be to put the GFCI breaker in the main pabel instead of the subpanel. That would protect everything in the garage at the same time.

Was thinking about this, and for convenience (unless cost prohibitive) I would defnintely want the GFCI breaker in the subpanel. If I trip the sub panel, I would have to exit the garage, go in the house, down to basement and flip at the main panel. Not the end of the world, but a pain.

So, it might be in your wallet's best interest to get your subpanel first and then decide (based on what kind of deal you can find on the GFCI breaker) whether you want to put the GFCI in the main panel or in the subpanel.

I think this is the route I am going to follow. Get a subpanel and start collecting what I need as I go. The tricky part for me is, finding a deal on ebay is a little tough, because I don't have 100% confidence that what I am buying is the "right" part. I might have to lean on my brother in law and have him help me hunt a bit.

 

[Walker]

The cable is about 1 inch wide x 1/4'' (and rectangular). I took the panel face off to look at it, but now I can't recall if I saw only two lines running from that breaker or 4. Will have to look.

The breaker will only have 1 or 2 wires coming out of it. The underground cable will pick up neutral and ground from somewhere else in the main panel, and will only be getting it's hot line(s) from the breaker.

If there are two lines coming out of the breaker, then it's double-pole. If there is one wire, then it's single pole.

Was thinking about this, and for convenience (unless cost prohibitive) I would defnintely want the GFCI breaker in the subpanel. If I trip the sub panel, I would have to exit the garage, go in the house, down to basement and flip at the main panel. Not the end of the world, but a pain.

Well... yeah, the GFCI breaker will be closer if you put it in the garage subpanel, but you are overlooking a critical point here. If that GFCI trips, then SOMETHING IS WRONG. It's not like you'll want to just flip it back on ang go about your business brewing. You'll have more to worry about and fix than just the walk to the house to reset the breaker.

 

[CidahMastah]

He was suggesting to go the route of 8 guage wire (three conductor all copper) and putting in a dual pole 50 amp breaker on the main panel. From there, add a 30 amp GFI to a (new) subpanel and keep the 20 amp for the garage door opener and possibly combine the lighting and outlets on one 15 amp (he would test the amp draw of the lights to see if this would be enough).

That would be the beefing it up way - the roll of 125 foot wire he recc was $207 (cheapest he could findonline). He thought, use what I need, and sell the rest on ebay. But still - that is a good chunk of change and I haven't even bought the new subpanel, 30amp GFI breaker, 50 amp dual pole breaker, etc. Looks like I will be more in the $400 range to get the material to implement an electric boil (wiring and breaker upgrades + cost of heating element, drill bit to cut a hole in the pot, PID, etc.)

 

[CidahMastah]

If there are two lines coming out of the breaker, then it's double-pole. If there is one wire, then it's single pole.

Ok there were definitely two lines, a red and a black coming from the breaker on the main panel, so 240 is going out, spit between the 20 amp cicuit and the 15's.

If that GFCI trips, then SOMETHING IS WRONG.

Ha I hear you. I was more speaking to the scenario where I turn on too much stuff at once, say wife hits the garage door opener while I am brewing, versus a trip based on my shoddy heating element install ha!

That would of course be if I went minimalist and only upgraded the main panel breaker to 30 amp

 

[Walker]

He was suggesting to go the route of 8 guage wire (three conductor all copper) and putting in a dual pole 50 amp breaker on the main panel. From there, add a 30 amp GFI to a (new) subpanel and keep the 20 amp for the garage door opener and possibly combine the lighting and outlets on one 15 amp (he would test the amp draw of the lights to see if this would be enough).

That would be the beefing it up way - the role of 125 foot wire he recc was $207 (cheapest he could findonline). He thought, use what I need, and sell the rest on ebay. But still - that is a good chunk of change and I haven't even bought the new subpanel, 30amp GFI breaker, 50 amp dual pole breaker, etc. Looks like I will be more in the $400 range to get the material to implement an electric boil (wiring and breaker upgrades + cost of heating element, drill bit to cut a hole in the pot, PID, etc.)

With that much electrical work needing to be done before you even have a place to plug a brewery in, you are going to be way up there in total costs if you want to use 240v and a single element.

Using 120V and two elements is still a possibility for you with out having to have any other work done, so keep that in mind.

 

[Walker]

Ha I hear you. I was more speaking to the scenario where I turn on too much stuff at once, say wife hits the garage door opener while I am brewing, versus a trip based on my shoddy heating element install ha!

Well, we were talking about where to put the GFCI breaker. Drawing too much current in the garage has nothing to do with where the GFCI is located.

If you have a large GFCI breaker in the house and a small standard breaker in the garage, the garage breaker will trip if you draw too much current through it. The large breaker in the house will trip if there is a ground fault.

If you have a large standard breaker in the house and a small GFCI breaker in the garage, then the garage breaker will trip if you draw too much current through it. The garage breaker will also trip if there is a ground fault.

But.. thinking about it more... it would suck to be brewing at night, have a ground fault and then suddenly find yourself in the dark because the feed from the main panel shut down.

 

[CidahMastah]

Ah that is true, because now we know that I have at least two circuits to draw from, therefore I could go the route of two heating elements.

Although, I do like the idea of only tossing in a dual pole 30 amp breaker on the main, and putting a 30 amp GFI breaker on the sub (new panel) without having to replace that line, if that is within spec of the wiring I have. I could go one element, with moderate cost. And I wouldn't even consider heat sticks.... just a perm. install in the pot.

 

[CidahMastah]

But.. thinking about it more... it would suck to be brewing at night, have a ground fault and then suddenly find yourself in the dark because the feed from the main panel shut down.

And to say I don't brew at night is a total lie haha. Sometimes if I get the green linght to brew during the week,... I am out there most of the night.

 

[Walker]

Ah that is true, because now we know that I have at least two circuits to draw from, therefore I could go the route of two heating elements.

Although, I do like the idea of only tossing in a 30 amp breaker on the main, and putting a 30 amp GFI breaker on the sub (new panel) without having to replace that line, if that is within spec of the wiring I have. I could go one element, with moderate cost. And I wouldn't even consider heat sticks.... just a perm. install in the pot.

Yup.

With no electrical work, you can go 2x elements on 120v.
With some electrical work, you can go 1x element on 240v.
With more invasive electrical work, you can do whatever the hell you want.

I will say this....

If you decide to go the route of major electrical work and replace that cable that feeds the garage, don't limit yourself. Fix this once and give yourself room to grow. Run 50+ amps to the garage so that you don't ever have to deal with it again, and allow the brewery to use 50A if necessary.

You can put small breakers inside your brewery control panel to drop the amps down for pretty cheap (brewery control panel basically includes its own built-in subpanel).

That's what I did with mine. I had a 50A GFCI breaker and a 50A receptacle installed in the garage. Inside my control panel, I drop down to 25A with some inexpensive panel-mount circuit breakers.

If I ever want to upgrade and use more power, the 50A is already available from the wall, and I just need to make changes within the brewery control panel.

 

[CidahMastah]

There is part of me that really wants to go big (the part of me that usually always wins ha). I have good reason to potentially install 2x240 outlets if I go with electric to heat the place for the climbing gym. So it is sort of a dual usage of the upgrade. I am not sure one heater unit will do the job for me, so upgrading would be, expensive, but ideal. However keeping the cost low, means more money for brewer equipment upgrades.

There is always a chance I can get my buddy to eat up some of the costs, since he will always be brewing at my house, on my electric dime. ha

 

[Walker]

There is always a chance I can get my buddy to eat up some of the costs, since he will always be brewing at my house, on my electric dime. ha

Just don't let him know how cheap it is.

I pay about $0.10 per kilowatt-hour for electricity. To brew 5 gallons, it costs me less than $1.25 now.

Previously, I was going through $12 worth of propane every two weeks, and now I go through $2.50 worth of electricity instead.

I'm saving close to $250 per year in brewery "fuel" expenses with the electric system. The system will have paid for itself in just a couple of years.

 

[CidahMastah]

Just don't let him know how cheap it is.

I pay about $0.10 per kilowatt-hour for electricity. To brew 5 gallons, it costs me less than $1.25 now.

Previously, I was going through $12 worth of propane every two weeks, and now I go through $2.50 worth of electricity instead.

I'm saving close to $250 per year in brewery "fuel" expenses with the electric system. The system will have paid for itself in just a couple of years.

See right there is a "business case" for moving to electric even if I go big. I am going through propane at about the rate you are talking about. Except for me the propane is like 16-18 to fill, but I am pretty sure my electric is more per kw/hour (.16 cents I think or more ).

 

[Walker]

for me the propane is like 16-18 to fill

Yeah, that's what I was paying for a tank re-fill, and I was getting three batches of brew and a little BBQ-ing out of each tank.

but I am pretty sure my electric is more per kw/hour (.16 cents I think or more ).

That would bump my $1.25 to $1.85. still super cheap.

 

[CidahMastah]

The more I consider this the more I think I am going to work towards the bigger set up (even if I have to "one piece at a time" it -johnny cash style).

50amp dual pole on the main
6 gauge wire through conduit
100 amp sub panel

Start with a dual pole 30amp GFI breaker -since I am not quite ready for a brewers control panel - (wire up the receptacles, garage door opener as my bro in law sees fit on additional breakers).

If I ever want to upgrade to a brewer panel and get a wicked set up like some of the gents on here, I can have the ability to grow.

Might be on propane for a couple more months before I get the project rolling.

 

[CidahMastah]

Hey walker, for your setup - you have a 50amp GFI on your subpanel, and how is your brewery control panel set up from there?

 

[bruin_ale]

Mine's the same as far as I have a 50A GFI in my subpanel. From there, I have a control panel with a DIN rail 30A breaker. The power cable runs from a 50A receptacle on the wall, through 50A inlet in the control panel and then immediately through the 30A DIN rail mounted breaker. That way, the whole setup can never draw more than 30A or the breaker in the panel will trip.

 

[CidahMastah]

Bruin ale - what element are you using for your boil?

Is the 50GFI needed since you have the 30 amp breaker in your control box? My chaos scenario is wondering... what if your element element fails and you typically draw 26 amps, you would still have a risk of being shocked if say 1-2 amps (any number below 30) were leaking out somewhere and you came into contact with it. Right?

 

[Walker]

Hey walker, for your setup - you have a 50amp GFI on your subpanel, and how is your brewery control panel set up from there?

The power cord coming into my control panel is rated for 50A, and the first thing it connects to inside of the control panel is a power distribution block rated for 50A.

From the distro block the hot lines it go to a few places.

One hot wire feeds to a 15A breaker that is mounted on the hinged door of the control panel. From here it goes out to power all of my 120V devices (PID, pump, etc, etc). The entire door of the thing is low amp 120V items.

Back inside the belly of the box, both hot wires feed to small 25A breakers to form the start of the heater element electrical path. After these breakers, the lines go through a contactor (heavy duty mechanical relay that I use for manual ON/OFF switching of the element). One of them then goes to the SSR and then to the kettle's receptacle. The other hot line just goes straight to the receptacle.

 

[bruin_ale]

I'm using a camco ULWD 5500W element. The 50A GFI breaker is there mostly for GFI protection and it's also needed as I had to have a circuit to tie the 50A dryer outlet to.

If the element fails, it's most likely going to fail open - meaning it won't be drawing any current. If it failed closed, it would basically be a power/ground short and would draw more than 30A and the breaker would trip. I think you're mixing up what GFI is for vs. what a breaker does.

A breaker or fuse are meant to protect wires and components. If you draw more current than you're wires were meant and there's no breaker to protect them, the wires could catch fire - so size them according to how much current the wires/components can handle.

A GFI is there to protect you, if current comes across the positive and doesn't return on the neutral/ground - the GFI will trip.

 

[Walker]

Bruin ale - what element are you using for your boil?

Is the 50GFI needed since you have the 30 amp breaker in your control box? My chaos scenario is wondering... what if your element element fails and you typically draw 26 amps, you would still have a risk of being shocked if say 1-2 amps (any number below 30) were leaking out somewhere and you came into contact with it. Right?

I know you asked Bruin, but I'll go ahead and give my own answer.

GFI is needed SOMEWHERE. The further back up the path towards the subpanel the better, because it will protect everything downstream of it.

Everything metal is grounded, too. My enclosure is metal and is connected to ground. The stainless kettle is also connected to ground.

If anything causes a hot line inside of my panel or on the kettle to come in contact with anything metal, then current will begin flow from the hot to the metal and then to ground, and the GFI will trip.

 

[Walker]

A GFI is there to protect you, if current comes across the positive and doesn't return on the neutral/ground - the GFI will trip.

Not quite. A GFI will allow current to flow on the neutral. What it won't allow is for current to "vanish" . It watches all current in and out of the system on the allowed wires (hot and neutral lines only... ground is not supposed to be carrying current.). If it ever sees that not all of the current going in is coming back out of the system, then it trips.

 

[bruin_ale]

yeah, I misspoke on the ground bit.. thanks for clearing that up.

 

[CidahMastah]

OK - thanks guys. I kinda want to get some of the final product schematic down, so I can show my bro in law. He gets the power upgrade, but doesn't fully understand the element bit and what I want to do. So now I can give him an example of where I am going (using your current set ups).

Much appreciated

 

[CidahMastah]

I think you're mixing up what GFI is for vs. what a breaker does.

I think so too. This stuff isn't my "schtick". Thanks for clearing that up

 

[CidahMastah]

Walker - you wouldn't happen to have a pic of how the PID is wired up would you? The bro in law wants to see how you have it, since he hasn't wired one up before.

No rush